We will never forget...

[HumanePain]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/11/911....ap/index.html

I did not want to post this in the "uncovering the truth" thread, because I am not interested in debating conspiracy theories etc.

I just want to remember the innocent U.S. citizens who were murdered that tragic day, and honor the memory of the heros of flight 93.

We will never forget. May God bless America.

[Smile]

Thank you for posting this on Gnet. I was afraid that I'd go the entire day without hearing any remembrance of those who died that day. And yes, we will never forget.

[NachtSorcier]

I'll just keep my mouth shut.

[MaguMan]

We had a moment of silence at work today that corresponded with the time in which the first plane struck. The announcement was half-assed over the radio and 3/4ths of our staff were left in confusion about exactly when that moment of silence took place, which pissed a lot of people off.

9/11 is definitely a scar that this nation will forever bare, but despite our heads being bowed on this anniversary, tomorrow they'll be held ever higher. It was one of the few events in US history that united this nation to stand together and overcome. To the victims of the attacks and to each and every soldier, firefighter, rescue worker, and police officer that has lost their life in answering the call of duty; we will indeed never forget you.

[MaverickZero]

At risk of being booed off stage, I'll say my opinion...

9/11/01 is a tragic time in our nation(s), and yes it will forever be scarred in our memories. I'm not debating that. The people who died/sacrificed themselves for others should be remembered. I'm not debating that either. However, this being 2007, 6 years after the attack happened, should we be so bold as to keep slapping everyone in the face with reminders of how afraid we should be?

I mean, isn't this what terrorism is all about in the first place? Inciting fear through means of radical violence.

I heard this argument on the radio today, and it really made me think. No more do they replay video after video of the Pearl Harbor attack. No more are we constantly reminded we should be mourning those lost in the Hiroshima Bomb. They are history lessons now, which most kids dread in high school.

We should be looking at bettering ourselves as nation(s), not scrambling to try and predict what horrendous disaster is next on our heels. If we had better security initially, we wouldn't have been so unprepared for these occurences. I'm not saying the past was preventable, however we wouldn't be in such turmoil now if we had been prepared.

I'm in no means trashing those who were lost, just saying simply that we need to let the dead rest. We can't heal when we keep ripping the wound open and not moving on.

In my opinion, people don't need 24 hours of continual video coverage to remind them of that day. The events themselves had the power to do so.

[thedoll]

The even still has such an effect on our lives today, and that is why it needs to be remembered. That this one moment in history hit so close to home and we should have moments of silence.

[msr.iaidoka]

Greetings all,

In 2001 I was still in my undergraduate institution. On the 9th of November (11/9 being the reciprocal of 9/11) I was chosen to be part of a memorial program held on campus wherein I stood in the courtyard and read the names of those who died on the first plane. It took quite an effort to make it through that list without stopping. However, what struck me the most was that there were no more than 10 people out there. This was less than two months after the incident.
While I agree that causing a populace to live in fear is the goal of terrorism I have to also adhere to the belief that memorials, and memorial services, serve a greater purpose than simply opening wounds. As a "trained historian" I cling to the idea that history must be remembered as much for the "else we are doomed to repeat it" sentiment as for anything else. For me, the memory of those who have died deserves remembrance. Not for reawakening fears, but for honor.
Living in a large city, wherein many prime targets of industry reside, I have to be constantly aware that such an incident can occur again and, mayhaps, it will be here. Such knowledge is enough to keep me aware of my risk. Memorials are a chance to mourn and, in a sense, release pressure.
For the innocent who died and for the public servants who gave their all to save others, I shall not forget.


I still observe Pearl Harbor Day,

Matt

[Beneath the Shadows]

I don't see the need to commemorate it every single year. In the first five, okay, I can understand that. After than, though, it should be commemorated every five years, or every ten.

Seriously, do we commemorate the event of the first WTC bombing every year? Or Columbine? Or D-Day? What about JFK's assassination? They are in that they are still talked about to this day, but they aren't given special recognition on the days they occurred. Not regularly, in any case.

On top of that, why do we give special recognition to the day we we, as a nation, were scared shitless? Do we want to keep being scared like that?

[MaverickZero]

That being said, its still affecting us today because we are constantly putting it in our faces. We can remember it, however I really disbelieve that we should be holding candlelight vigils 6 years after the event happened.

There is time for rememberance then there is time for healing an letting go.

What is going on now, is just a media frenzy. People are making money off of this and this is really why it is still circulating today. We are still afraid that the big bad arabs are gonna come in and drop vehicles on us, bomb our buildings and schools, whilist they are in their home country laughing at us.

Why are they laughing?

We are running away from ghosts, planted in our minds by the terrorist acts. Thus resulting in what Bin Laden and the other extremests were vying for in the first place.

We as a society, are falling apart because of our own paranoia.

[msr.iaidoka]

Beneath the Shadows,

The reason why we still commemorate 9/11 so fiercely and not any other incident is, I believe, due to three factors.

1. There has not yet been another large, or larger, incident to trump the value of 9/11.

2. Survivors and the relatives of the dead are still alive and are still quite influential.

3. The saddest reason of all, there is still money to be made off of this.


Tragedy = opportunity for profit,

Matt

[MaverickZero]

Originally Posted by msr.iaidoka

1. There has not yet been another large, or larger, incident to trump the value of 9/11.

Apart from the Virgina Tech Massacre, although it was only 30-some people whom were killed, it still is quite dire considering it was easily preventable. Even after the events of Columbine, these events still happen. Could this be a forshadow of what our homeland security is as well?

Originally Posted by msr.iaidoka

2. Survivors and the relatives of the dead are still alive and are still quite influential.

Most people who lost loved ones (I don't speak for anyone, I speak from testimony I've heard) just want the past to be left behind and let their loved ones rest. The ones going out to these vigils and holding these grandoir presentations, are usually politicians whom are using it as a platform, (*Ahem* Rudi Guliani...) or those whom "wish to help" those who have lost loved ones, by showing they "support" one another.

In my opinion, I didn't see them scouring through wreckage, or running in the building in efforts to help evactuate. People use this as an excuse to get a pat on the back, and 1 day out of the year pretend that they are patriotic, because the rest of the time they have their lives to tend to.

Originally Posted by msr.iaidoka

3. The saddest reason of all, there is still money to be made off of this.

Can't argue this at all. Point: Anyone remember the summer blockbusters Farenheit 9/11, World Trade Center, Flight 93? Yeah. They're doing it because they genuinely care what happened on 9/11, not because they got Nick Cage to play a no-name fire fighter to star and rake in billions of money, or further their career by one-sided arguments about how the US Government sucks.

[msr.iaidoka]

MaverickZero,

"Our" Homeland Security? Do you live in the U.S. now? I am not being sarcastic, I am serious. I thought you live in Barrie, Ontario. If I am mistaken please feel free to correct me.
Incidents like Virginia Tech will always been possible since they are small scale. Much like the Texas tower sniper incident in the mid-1960s. The only way that such a thing would be totally preventable would be for the nation to become a near police state.
While many of the outspoken relatives of the victims do say that they wish to let things rest I would be surprised that, if the nation did not observe the holiday, there was no outcry. It may not be a massive outcry, but it would be enough and no one wants to be responsible for that.


Peace,

Matt

[MaverickZero]

I'm saying "our" because it's not only affected the US, but Canada's policies as well. Which is also why I say "nation(s)".

However, in defence of my statements, they could have "saved lives" as they stated in the article about VT, if the campus security had informed the rest of the campus after the inital shootings.

While gun violence is prevelant in the US, it is very much the same in Canada. For example, there have been muggings, shootings, stabbings etc, every other day in the city of Toronto. That being said there are nearly 4 million people there, however it still doesn't give it justification.

There is no stopping violence completely, because as a society we have been in violence for too long for it to stop now. I'm not saying we should stop fighting it altogether, I'm simply saying we need to be more prepared for these things.

It just seems like whenever something happens its always a huge surprise. Like it could never happen in your neighborhood. However, this is the premise. It CAN happen in your neighborhood, so be prepared. Which we, as in both our nations, have failed to do many times before.

We won't be attacked, or bombed, or terrorized against if and when our guards are up. That being said, we will never have civil freedoms if we keep our guard too high.

[msr.iaidoka]

MaverickZero,

Thank you for the clarification.
As for the inherent nature of violence, I agree. I have lived my life around it and continue to teach both the use of it and defense against it.

"Organic beings are constantly fighting for life. Every breath, every motion brings you one instant closer to your death. With that kind of heritage and destiny, how can you deny yourself? How can you expect yourself to give up violence?" - Durandal from "Marathon"

The surprise that occurs whenever such an incident occurs is natural. People are surprised when a belligerent drunk in a bar punches them in the face despite the common sense warning signs.
The balance between protection and freedom is delicate. I want my freedoms as much as any other sentient being, but I realize that, in having these freedoms, I am giving up certain degrees of protection. That is the way humans, and their governments, work.


Durandal is a cool name,

Matt

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by msr.iaidoka

Beneath the Shadows,

The reason why we still commemorate 9/11 so fiercely and not any other incident is, I believe, due to three factors.

1. There has not yet been another large, or larger, incident to trump the value of 9/11.

2. Survivors and the relatives of the dead are still alive and are still quite influential.

3. The saddest reason of all, there is still money to be made off of this.


Tragedy = opportunity for profit,

Matt

I disagree. Before 9/11, the same could be said for all the incidents I mentioned above, as well as others, such as the Oklahoma City bombing. And even after 9/11, numbers 2 and 3 are still valid. But each of those incidents were not so important in the eyes of both the media and the public (though, admittedly, oftentimes those two eyes are one and the same).

I think there's something more at work. Call it a government conspiracy, call it a fruition of one of Nostradamus's prophecies, call it what you will... there's something bigger that we're not seeing.

[msr.iaidoka]

Beneath the Shadows,

That was precisely my point. Those reasons are why each incident up until 9/11 lasted as long in the public memory as they did. As such, 9/11 continues to linger until something trumps it and/or conditions 2 and 3 diminish. It takes an incident of great magnitude to capture the national eye. The Virginia Tech incident is, of course, very important to those in Virginia and their families, but it is not as important elsewhere. This does not deny the tragedy, merely the effect it will have on the public memory.


Big tragedy = big wound = big scar,

Matt

[MaverickZero]

I definately agree with you, in both statements.

Here is a question, relevant to the drunk: Why is it that the people who are sober are more prepared for the belligerant drunk, than the people whom are already drunk? I mean, alright; my question kind of answers itself, however I just wonder why I am not as shattered/surprised by someone snapping and going on a killing spree in Smalltown USA, as the person next to me.

I've been raised in a broken home, as have many people on this planet have been I assume, I've dealt with my own share of "hardships" as small as they be in comparison. Is this "callous" nature of mine a byproduct of how I was raised, or is this just a conscious decision I'm making to supress emotion towards another human being?

I for one, believe it's the way I've been raised. I am generally prepared for what could happen, not saying I'm totally prepared, Murphy's Law, however if you look at the people who would outcry or who would call for heads over "reletively" small things as missed memorials for VT or Columbine, these people haven't had much turmoil in their lives.

I'm not saying that's what it is for everyone mind you, just for the "squeakiest wheels" of the situation.

[msr.iaidoka]

MaverickZero,

It does not effect you as much because, in the human mind, it can be written off as, "that is how they are, no wonder it happened there." People are accustomed to troubles occurring elsewhere; be that in another city, state, or country. As such, when it does happen they shrug it off. The fact that it did not happen in front of them means that they can ignore it and focus on "what matters" in their own lives. When it does happen in their own sphere of comfort then their grasp on "what matters" changes and, suddenly, they have to care.
As for social conditioning determining preparedness, I can not say. I am not a sociologist.


S.E.P.,

Matt

[MaverickZero]

Well I can say on that note, I do know how it feels to be abandoned so to speak after a tragedy. After a house fire, which left me no choice but to live with someone for a period of time, it seemed like after the initial incident itself, everyone just went back to their lives and I was still living in the tragedy. I remember even being cynical at one point because of the lack of support my family was receiving from the community.

I guess looking back on it, you are in a completely different state of mind. Only after you heal and move on do you really begin to think straight again.

Back on the topic of 9/11:

This all being said... It is based on the assumption that all this (9/11) was actually a terrorist plot. Not taking into account all the conspiracy theories and intellegence holes that point to other reasons (Saddam, Oil). 9/11 is used as a platform, and will continue to be used as a platform. Like it was said on a local radio station, (local being in Oakland, I listen to internet radio) If this attack had happened in San Fransisco, it would not be nearly as big a tragety or political platform as it is today. Had it been anywhere, other than New York/Washington, it would have been an entirely different ballgame.

[CptSternn]

I intentionally didn't enter this thread when it was posted because of my views. That being said, I agree with pretty much all the posts above, and share a similar view.

I also am reminded of the episode of Family Guy, Season 5, where Lois runs for office. She wins. How? Every question during the debate she just says '9-11', and the reporters in the audience start throwing beach balls and holding up lighters.

9-11 is no more a somber event than Spring Break. The bush administration has used it *every* year for political maneuvers. This year it was the Petraeus report, last year they announced new terrorism laws, the year prior they used it to alert us of another possible attack - no matter what my or your feelings towards this event are, the current administration has no reverence for it and uses it as the proverbial political football each chance it gets.

I find it hard to believe they care about it, or those effected when they use the event as such. It's a disgrace, no matter what your feelings or beliefs are to the actual event or the facts around it.

[msr.iaidoka]

CptSternn,

I agree that the use of the 9/11 incident for gain, of any sort, is shameful and that was part of the rationale behind my third reason for the continued high-level observance of the "holiday." The small-scale observances, however, I find to be true to the sentiment and my reasons for personal memorializing still stand.


血と鉄、

マット

[MaguMan]

It's easy to look back and think, "Yeah, what's the big deal?" and totally disregard the fact that the world has changed in a major way. 9/11 didn't just send shock-waves through the United States, but across the entire globe.

9/11 wasn't a major military offensive by a sovereign nation against the USA, it was a well calculated and highly successful attack that challenged this country's way of life. It sparked a great ideological conflict on the world stage that will be affecting the lives of our children for decades to come. Without 9/11, many parts of the world would not be what they are today. It really brought the US up to par on many things as well. The peaceful, carefree lifestyle that Americans have lived for decades is now gone. It's not coming back. Welcome to the security Europe has since long had to adopt.

We wouldn't be there either if such an attack wasn't so devastating, on the lives of our citizens, our economy, our security, and our way of life. Sorry, but Columbine and the JFK assassination didn't cause enough of an upset or mark such a catastrophic event as to not only unite this nation in solidarity for a period of time, but also to change the entire world and certainly the every day lives of US citizens for ages to come.

You want to know where you are today, you can't forget where you came from yesterday. Commemoration is not equated to fear mongering.

[delicti]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

At risk of being booed off stage, I'll say my opinion...

9/11/01 is a tragic time in our nation(s), and yes it will forever be scarred in our memories. I'm not debating that. The people who died/sacrificed themselves for others should be remembered. I'm not debating that either. However, this being 2007, 6 years after the attack happened, should we be so bold as to keep slapping everyone in the face with reminders of how afraid we should be?

I mean, isn't this what terrorism is all about in the first place? Inciting fear through means of radical violence.

Dude, this thread isn't supposed to be a debate. There's plenty of threads about this topic that you can jump in on, don't be rude.

[MaverickZero]

Originally Posted by delicti

Dude, this thread isn't supposed to be a debate. There's plenty of threads about this topic that you can jump in on, don't be rude.

I just posted my opinion, not debating. I didn't bring up any allegations of conspiracy, like the person asked initially. I'm just discussing my thoughts on the topic.

My statement was just this: Until we can go a year without someone saying to another person "remember 9/11" the terrorists are winning. We remember, we don't need to tell everyone we remember, it's just not something we would forget.

[LadyLucretia]

Someone pointed out that the impact of the VA Tech massacre on the public consciousness will be most felt in VA and surrounding areas, whereas elsewhere people will forget it more quickly.

Perhaps this is and should be true for 9/11. If your experience of that day consisted entirely of watching the news, then maybe there is no point in hanging on to those memories.

But for those of us who were close enough to see the smoke, who saw first hand the gaping hole in the NYC skyline that was beloved to so many for what it stood for - freedom, strength, opportunity - then I can not imagine anyone being so disrespectful as to deny us the right to commemorate that day.

If someone you know died, wouldn't you want to pause every year on their birthday, just to remember them quietly? Why is it so different for those who were there on 9/11? Sure, it will be politicized. People will try to profit from it. It will be cheapened in many way for many people. But there are still those who are in mourning - for loved ones, for the city they loved that is changed forever. And THOSE are the people who still have a need for services, memorials, vigils. They need to feel like this life altering event is more than just a chapter in a history book - it is a fresh wound that is still healing, and the recovery process still takes a community effort. Suppressing memories for the sake of "moving on" is not an option for many people. Those of you who can move on and forget about terrorism - you are lucky. There are still families out there who never received a possession or body part to confirm the death of their loved one, and who can fault them for not wanting the world to just forget about all those lost children, husbands, wives?

So maybe only NYC should have widespread memorials, or maybe only displaced New Yorkers should have a moment of silence. I'm not saying that everyone needs to still care, because lets face it, it didn't effect everyone on the same level.

But please, have some respect for the direct impact 9/11 had on so many people's lives.