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Old 12-23-2005, 11:40 AM   #51
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Um... I was reading information on the web and I found "plastic surgery for men" you know to make their "little" thing in some cases larger...
THE ZISE IS NOT IMPORTANT, THE IMPORTANT THING IS HOW YOU USE IT!
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Old 12-24-2005, 08:02 PM   #52
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Why do you think getting plastic surgery done is a symptom of a destructive personality? If anything, they are improving their body.
It's self-destructive to the original self, the form into which the person was born. Physically corrective surgery is physically self-destructive, and the fact that this fact is so plain and true leads me to believe that it would be very easy for plastic surgery to also be emotionally self-destructive.
And you can't say that it's *never* self-destructive on an emotional level. You know people go crazy over things like beauty, and having plastic surgery available to people who go crazy over themselves just fuels the fire (of crazy).
It's not always bad, but it's definitely not always good.
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Old 12-25-2005, 02:21 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeapotScar
It's self-destructive to the original self, the form into which the person was born. Physically corrective surgery is physically self-destructive, and the fact that this fact is so plain and true leads me to believe that it would be very easy for plastic surgery to also be emotionally self-destructive.
And you can't say that it's *never* self-destructive on an emotional level. You know people go crazy over things like beauty, and having plastic surgery available to people who go crazy over themselves just fuels the fire (of crazy).
It's not always bad, but it's definitely not always good.
I said this earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythan
Even though they may be reducing their attractiveness to other people, they believe that they are being improved.
There is no such thing as perfection. There is such thing as an ideal, and one of those is what people usually strive for in the use of plastic surgery. If nothing is perfect, then there is nothing bad about change. All that is different is the amount that the change approaches or deviates from the ideal. If a session of plastic surgery helps the person approach an ideal, there is nothing wrong with it.
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Old 12-25-2005, 08:41 PM   #54
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But hey, we do live in a barbie world, where blondes with tanned skin and big boobs (plastic or not) will always seem to be "hot".

A world where sex appeal is a strong aspect of marketing and attracting business.

Hence, Pamela Anderson.

I seriously can't see anything "appealing" about her outer appearance. Tough, guys have the tendency to love her boobs. She's a pornstar icon
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Old 12-25-2005, 09:29 PM   #55
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Actually, I know plenty of guys who just see her as plastic. Thank G-d that there are men with brains who would prefer real women. (That wasn't a sexist note. Folks get way too offensive these days.)
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Old 12-27-2005, 12:23 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockandrose
But hey, we do live in a barbie world, where blondes with tanned skin and big boobs (plastic or not) will always seem to be "hot".

A world where sex appeal is a strong aspect of marketing and attracting business.

Hence, Pamela Anderson.

I seriously can't see anything "appealing" about her outer appearance. Tough, guys have the tendency to love her boobs. She's a pornstar icon

Granted I am not the typical guy, and a female probably welcomes my opinion like a visit from her "Aunt Flo", and considering I am not normal since rather than boobs or butts the first thing I look at on a woman is her (hopefully brown) eyes...still...I never understood that either. And I think more and more dudes are of the opinion that the given idea of "hot" isn't for them.

Women's ideas of what's hot on a guy have not changed, however, hence my desire to get plastic surgery my own self.
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Old 12-27-2005, 12:40 AM   #57
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I think plastic surgery is up to each individual. Personally, once I'm old enough and can *easily* afford it, I want to get lipo. When I hit puberty I put on weight and I can't seem to lose it. But I'm just shallow like that.
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Old 12-28-2005, 12:57 PM   #58
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Are you sure you need it though? Women can have extra poundage and most guys don't mind.

I could see if it were a health risk, or you looked perpetually preggers, but otherwise do you really think you need it? I am gonna guess no!

(I need it though )
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Old 12-28-2005, 01:14 PM   #59
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Beauty is not the only reason for cosmetic surgery. Some people have plastic surgery just so they can feel normal; so they can go about their lives without CONSTANTLY thinking about their bodies.

I've had plastic surgery. Breast implants, to be specific. Now I'm a B cup. Yes, that's right - a B cup AFTER the implants.

Before? Basically nothing. I was born with a number of birth defects, including pectus excavatum and hypoplasia.** In short, I never developed breasts.

I was 15, 16, 17, 18 years old... with an upper body like a malformed 8-year-old boy. I had no sexuality because I didn't feel like a woman. P.E. classes were nightmares. I was horribly self-conscious.

Finally, plastic surgery. I went to sleep one day when I was 19, and woke up two hours later with breasts. It was one of the greatest changes in my life.

Do my breasts feel natural? Probably not. (I've never had natural breasts, so I wouldn't really know.) Do they look natural? They're pretty good considering what my plastic surgeon had to work with.

What matters to me is that I sort of ... almost ... feel like a normal woman, and I can wear regular clothes without having to strap on prosthetics - which would be a painful daily reminder of how less-than-normal my body is.



** If you want the gory details, check these links. WARNING: not pretty!
http://www.pectus.org/photos.htm
http://www.kidsplastsurg.com/br_femalesm.html
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Old 12-29-2005, 09:30 AM   #60
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I see a pretty distinct line between a woman with no breasts wanting to have breasts and a woman with normal breasts wanting to have bigger breasts. Having breasts is an integral part of being a woman. Breast size, however, varies greatly and a preference for size is a matter of opinion and current fashion.

When my plastic surgeon asked me what size I wanted to be, he seemed surprised that I said a B cup. I'm sure he was expecting the usual "make me a DD." After all, big breasts are in style. But I don't want to be any larger than a B.

There's no denying that plastic surgery is associated with low self esteem. And certainly some people get surgery thinking that it will change their life - but afterwards they feel just as bad about themselves. In those cases, therapy would be a much better option than plastic surgery.

So should plastic surgery ever be performed on people with low self esteem? Sure, if the expectations are realistic. I knew having implants wouldn't change my life, but I hoped it would help me stop obsessing over my body. And it did. Before my surgery, I thought about my body constantly. Every outfit was chosen with the purpose of hiding my body as much as possible. After my surgery, I thought less and less about my chest. Now, I hardly give my breasts a second thought.

I plan to have plastic surgery next year to fix the one other part of my body that bothers me constantly - my eyes. I've had dreadful bags under my eyes my whole life, and I am sick and tired of looking sick and tired! After a lifetime of struggle, I am finally pulling myself out of depression... but when I look in the mirror, I see a tired, sad woman. My face will never match the happiness I have inside. No matter how wonderful I feel inside, I always look like I've been crying or had the flu.

Will I ever have plastic surgery again after that? I seriously doubt it. The rest of my body is healthy and reflects who I am.
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Old 12-29-2005, 09:43 AM   #61
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I don't think there is anything wrong with plastic surgery if it makes an individual feel better about themselves.
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Old 12-29-2005, 09:58 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlKilyu
Are you sure you need it though? Women can have extra poundage and most guys don't mind.

I could see if it were a health risk, or you looked perpetually preggers, but otherwise do you really think you need it? I am gonna guess no!

(I need it though )

All of my weight stays in my stomach/thighs/hips/ass. Hence my HUGE ass. *Now for the low self-esteem* Majority of my close friends are very thin people. But they got thin through bulimia, drugs, and the likes. I've dieted, but to no avail. I exercised, but it didn't do much. I've gotten to the point where I stopped swimming, *I used to be on swim team* Because my bathing suit showed off my legs, my least favorite part of my body. I don't give a damn if someone thinks I'm skinny, fat, etc, I just wanna be able to have fun. Wear what I want without the constant thinking if someone can see my legs. If I can see my legs.


>And I wear waist cinchers because my stomach "pops" out. Yes, I've had people ask if I were pregnant...

((And my *sad* secret little dream... to be a suicide girl. An ex-boyfriend told me I could never be that wanted or sexy, and to me, it'd just be sweet revenge.))
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Old 12-29-2005, 10:25 AM   #63
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I had my nose reconstructed about 5 years ago. I had it broken in high school and the cartilage deteriorated over the years until the tip of my nose almost touched my top lip.
Aside from it affecting the way I felt about myself physically, it was a healh problem because I couldnt breathe through my nose at all. So, with a good insurance plan and a great doctor, I got a nose job and the honker's been great ever since.

Though I would never get any kind of plastic surgery for myself(other than the above mentioned nose job) I do understand what would make someone want to augment or enhance themselves. I believe a lot of it has to do with low self esteem and society shoving images down our throats of how we SHOULD look.
I grew up big, hefty, husky, chunky or just fat and I had a HUGE complex as to how I looked. From my facial features to my body, I was disgusted with myself.
It didnt matter what, who, or how many people told me I was attractive or I looked great because I saw the same fat 11 year old in the mirror that my dad threatened to buy a bra for. That was me. It didnt matter how big or thin or muscled I was because I was always that person in my mind.
It wasnt until my year of introspection and getting rid of people in my life who used, manipulated and basically enjoyed squashing my ego that I began forcing myself to see what others saw in me physically as well as intellectually and spiritually.
I forced myself to look in the mirror and see the positives instead of the negative. It's always so easy to point out the bad but try spending five minutes pointing out all the good in your body...it can be the longest five minutes of your life.

I digress...
The bottom line is that the plastic surgery industry feeds on low self esteem. As long as people exist that promote that false image that people feel compelled to live up to then Dr.'s will be there to happily provide that service.

Look, I'm just a mean, cynical old man but dont change your body. Noone should have to. Change the way you see your body and yourself and you'd be surpised at the outcome.

anyway..I've talked for too long and rmabled too much.
I'll shut up.
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Old 12-29-2005, 12:02 PM   #64
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It is in our nature to want to look better in order to attract mates. The only way that the ideals shown on TV and in advertising can remain is if there is support from the masses. Good looks sell products, and as the ideal changes, so do the advertisements.

An ideal doesn't originate in ads; it starts when the larger population show a tendency for a certain trait to be considered attractive.

If, say, people were at a certain time convinced that overweight people were an ideal to be strived for. Then an ad company makes a commercial about make-up or something, with a slim model. This would not be recieved as well as if the ad used a model who fit the ideal of the time-period.

If, however, society changes it's ideal to one of slimness, then ads featuring a slim model would be better received. The ideals of society change relatively slowly, and cannot be influenced much at all by a few ads. The ads only show what was there already.

If someone considers herself unattractive (if that is true or not), then she is responding to evidence suggesting this, such as statements from others, or observations of the established ideal. By convincing herself that she is more attractive than previously thought (without new evidence), she is only deluding herself. This is not logical behavior, and should not be advocated.
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Old 12-29-2005, 02:22 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythan
If someone considers herself unattractive (if that is true or not), then she is responding to evidence suggesting this, such as statements from others, or observations of the established ideal. By convincing herself that she is more attractive than previously thought (without new evidence), she is only deluding herself. This is not logical behavior, and should not be advocated.
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.

I used to consider myself unattractive, responding to evidence such as teasing from others and comparison of my body to others' bodies.

I eventually convinced myself that I was more attractive than previously thought. I still didn't think I was attractive, I just no longer viewed myself as a hideous freak.

Was I deluding myself?

Was my better view of myself something that should not be advocated? (I should have continued to think I was ugly until people started to tell me otherwise?)
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Old 12-29-2005, 02:33 PM   #66
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I think 'sex appeal' will remain as a major figure to assist in marketing for a very long time.

The media want to sell. People want to sell. It's all about filling their hungry money bank.

I walked into a clothing store yesterday, as I was specifically looking for a dress. I saw a tanned, blonde haired metrosexual male model, standing by the door greeting customers as they enter. Pathetic really. He gets paid to just stand there and look "good". Not the first time I've seen something like that. I think there really is a fine line in marketing.

Living Ken dolls are just as plastic as living Barbie Dolls.

I get bit freaked out when I see someone that resembles a lot like a barbie doll, that I really can't tell the difference between my own doll and the living one.
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Old 12-29-2005, 06:29 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall One In Black
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.

I used to consider myself unattractive, responding to evidence such as teasing from others and comparison of my body to others' bodies.

I eventually convinced myself that I was more attractive than previously thought. I still didn't think I was attractive, I just no longer viewed myself as a hideous freak.

Was I deluding myself?

Was my better view of myself something that should not be advocated? (I should have continued to think I was ugly until people started to tell me otherwise?)
If someone changes their opinion of something without new evidence, they are not being logical.

I didn't mean to imply that convincing yourself that you are more attractive was not to your benefit. I only tried to say that it shouldn't be expected of someone to think in this fashion in order to feel better about him/herself.

If someone sees themself as unattractive for a lengthy amount of time, she may be resistant to changes in that opinion. This means that, yes, it may be beneficial for her to convince herself that she is of higher attractiveness, because it is balancing out her other misconception (the thought that she is still ugly). This, however, is still delusory behavior. The fact that in the end it is balanced out does not change this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urian
Look, I'm just a mean, cynical old man but dont change your body. Noone should have to. Change the way you see your body and yourself and you'd be surpised at the outcome.
urian's quote is basically the opposite of how I think things should be. Sure, someone who is relatively unattractive could convince herself that she is gorgeous, and that would change a lot. But does really want to sacrifice her rationality for a different frame of mind?

In that light, I'm sure many insane people have wonderful lives by living in a delusory world. If it would make the person happier to be utterly insane, then why not? I believe that this issue is basically the same, only less extreme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockandrose
The media want to sell. People want to sell. It's all about filling their hungry money bank.
Of course they want to sell things by using an ideal. That is the whole point! We are attracted to an ideal, so that puts a positive light on whatever they are selling. Why should it be any different?
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Old 12-29-2005, 08:05 PM   #68
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Quote:
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I like my hubby's take on the media's ideal people.

"They're genetic freaks. Take the mean or median of everyone in the world and see what the real range is. They're freaks."
It wouldn't be a very good ideal if the majority of people exhibited it. Not many people can achieve an ideal, but we can all work towards it.

Someone who looks "normal" as opposed to "unattractive" is typically closer to an ideal. Changing from unattractive to normal is the same as from normal to attractive. It's all the same scale of attractiveness. The difference is that there are many different ideals.
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Old 12-29-2005, 08:21 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by katsumy
Um... I was reading information on the web and I found "plastic surgery for men" you know to make their "little" thing in some cases larger...
THE ZISE IS NOT IMPORTANT, THE IMPORTANT THING IS HOW YOU USE IT!
I'm sorry hun, but I'm going to have to say, from experience, that size DOES matter!! They don't have to be hung like a clydesdale, but you can't churn butter with a toothpick.




I think there's nothing wrong with getting a little plastic surgery, for a mentally healthy individual.
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Old 12-30-2005, 04:34 AM   #70
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They don't have to be hung like a clydesdale, but you can't churn butter with a toothpick.
hey! you absolutely can if the butter is being made in a thimble.

i'm just sayin'...
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Old 12-30-2005, 07:57 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythan
If someone changes their opinion of something without new evidence, they are not being logical.
I think changing one's opinion of something by reevaluating existing evidence is logical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythan
I didn't mean to imply that convincing yourself that you are more attractive was not to your benefit. I only tried to say that it shouldn't be expected of someone to think in this fashion in order to feel better about him/herself.
How should one begin to feel better about himself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythan
If someone sees themself as unattractive for a lengthy amount of time, she may be resistant to changes in that opinion. This means that, yes, it may be beneficial for her to convince herself that she is of higher attractiveness, because it is balancing out her other misconception (the thought that she is still ugly). This, however, is still delusory behavior. The fact that in the end it is balanced out does not change this.
You say the thought that she is ugly is the "other" misconception as if believing she is of higher attractiveness is a misconception. In truth, she really is of higher attractiveness.

How can realizing the truth be delusory behavior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythan
It wouldn't be a very good ideal if the majority of people exhibited it. Not many people can achieve an ideal, but we can all work towards it.
We can, but not all of us want to. Some ideals are unrealistic and even harmful to those who try to achieve them (such as the current "ideal" body for a woman), while others I simply don't respect (such as the ideal of success as measured in dollars).

That said, I believe everyone should have goals... but not necessarily the ones society tells us are the ideals.
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Old 12-30-2005, 10:53 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfMoon

I'm sorry hun, but I'm going to have to say, from experience, that size DOES matter!! They don't have to be hung like a clydesdale, but you can't churn butter with a toothpick.



Hey, thats MY line..

Let me also say that just because it's big enough to churn butter with, DOES NOT by default mean, that the 'Churner' is good for ANYTHING else..

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Old 12-30-2005, 11:07 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by edible_eye
hey! you absolutely can if the butter is being made in a thimble.

i'm just sayin'...

There's a lot of benefit to having bodies whose sizes and shapes work together nicely. After breaking up with one particular boyfriend, I hoped that the next boyfriend would be smaller. I had grown tired of having to be hypervigilant about every move to avoid getting hurt... and of sometimes getting hurt even though I was careful.
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Old 12-30-2005, 11:58 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall One In Black
I think changing one's opinion of something by reevaluating existing evidence is logical.
It can be, but not in the case of someone saying that one should feel better about herself, regardless of her actual relation to an ideal. If someone states something such as, "People shouldn't care about what other people think" or "Everyone should be satisfied with his/her body", he/she is saying that everyone should not try to achieve an ideal, even if many of the people who respond to those statements are below average. This causes many people to have a skewed opinion of themself, and prevents them from striving to become more attractive. That is harmful, or at least not beneficial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall One In Black
You say the thought that she is ugly is the "other" misconception as if believing she is of higher attractiveness is a misconception. In truth, she really is of higher attractiveness.

How can realizing the truth be delusory behavior?
Let's say that there is an entity named "Chblacr" Who is all-powerful and the creator of the universe. Let's say there is an insane person who, coincidentally, believes in the existence of this entity "Chblacr". She believes, in her own mind, that this entity does exist. She is correct, but that does not stop her belief from being delusory.

In convincing someone that she is attractive, without giving her new evidence, you are promoting delusory thinking, regardless of whether she is attractive or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall One In Black
We can, but not all of us want to. Some ideals are unrealistic and even harmful to those who try to achieve them (such as the current "ideal" body for a woman), while others I simply don't respect (such as the ideal of success as measured in dollars).

That said, I believe everyone should have goals... but not necessarily the ones society tells us are the ideals.
I have said that there are many different ideals, some of which are more prevalent than others. In having a goal, you are in fact pursuing an ideal. The properties of an ideal do not change if they increase or decrease in popularity within society. The more prevalent ideals are the ones which more people have decided to adopt as worthy or favorable goals.
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Old 12-30-2005, 07:00 PM   #75
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Hey, thats MY line..

Let me also say that just because it's big enough to churn butter with, DOES NOT by default mean, that the 'Churner' is good for ANYTHING else..

Like steering boats or honking horns?


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