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Old 10-30-2008, 07:41 PM   #76
Bella Sophia
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
LOL, buuuuuuuurn!
I love how you had no problem speaking with me until I began to question you. Good luck staying in Gnet when no one likes you.
I'll be superior to you even in being a whore: rather than saying "lalala I'm ignoring you" I am just going to honestly stop talking because I have self control. Meanwhile, you'll keep reminding me just how much you're avoiding me.
Question? More like attack.
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Originally Posted by dead_dreams
What the Hell is wrong with you!?!?! who the Hell kill's helpless and innocent babies? that's f***ing sick!!!
Don't you have anything better to do than pollute our forums?!?
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:41 PM   #77
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Jillian has a point.

If you are going to make a claim, you really should have some compelling reason to back it up, at least if it is supposed to apply to reality in some meaningful way.

If you're just spouting arbitrary nonsense, then sure it doesn't really matter and it can just be a fun intellectual exercise, but its hard to hold a conversation that way.
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:45 PM   #78
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Also on the “magic” note:

Rough definition: the alteration or bending of reality through will and/or ritual.

So no it doesn’t necessarily mean that if I believe gravity doesn’t exist I will float off. But it means that I through the cultivation of my mind will be able to effect the physical world and other wise with it.
Humans are extremely limited by what we believe we can and cant do. There have been many studies on the power of the human mind and how much it can affect reality. Not to say the a “reality” actually exists.

So in context of “paganism” “witch craft” etc.
There are a few axioms that should be established before I continue:
1.The universe is harmonious, and is meant to function perfectly.
2. Humans are natural parts of the universe as well as co creators of our particular reality.
3. The work of a “witch” is not to fight against the natural flow of the universe but to work with in it. Working in accordance with all other components.
4. I know there are others but I will bring them up later if I think I have to.

I as a human am a co-creator of my universe and am responsible for all actions and energy I willfully or consciously create. The energy I emit effects the universe and so I attempt to control and hone it as best I can. I see things that I wish to effect in the universe, and try through will and ritual (because humans love it) to bend reality. My end goal being harmony, positivity and efficiency. I have power to effect the universe, for I was born with it.
And everything I’m talking about is part of the physical world. And will eventually be proven by science (assuming we don’t fuck up more and blow our selves to shit) .



Jonathan: "At some point, reality trumps belief. The world is full of things that exploit false beliefs to the very real harm of the believer. Perception might interpret reality, but it does not create it. If I put my hands over my face, you don't stop existing."



There is no such thing but perception. Reality is all perception. The things we call reality are things that others verify with their perception.
If you put your hands in front of your face you cant see me but you still believe I exist. You believe this because what you have observed over the course of your life. That every time you move your hands away I am right where I was before you stopped looking. Babies for instance cant really perceive depth, so when you put your hands in front of your face they think your face is really gone (thus peek-a-boo is fun for many of them). So if not being able to perceive/see something like depth alters ones reality SOO much imagine all the things that none/or most of us cant see/perceive. Think of how different reality would be if you were given a new sense to view it with? What we perceive as reality is very limited indeed. There is sooo much we cant see, yet we are barely able to absorb everything that we can.
With just our physical bodies we can only see so much, through science we are able to see that which we cant with just our bodies. Science create/discovered by our minds. Magick created/discovered by our minds.

And its not just the beliefs but the energy and will put out by the individual or group.
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:47 PM   #79
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Supernatural things are a human construct to explain things they don't understand.
They just believe them so much and so thoroughly that they turn into half-truths that exist in people's hearts and minds. They live and die and kill and devote their entire selves to the object(s) of their belief. They base their attitudes and behaviours on the doctrines and stories. People lose friends and cut off family because of small differences. The strength and conviction with which people believe things is wondrous, whether for good or bad, and I think it's one of the things that makes us human (even though it can make us act like animals).
People seek satisfaction and peace of mind. If a religion gives that to them, they will follow. If science gives that to them, they will follow. If neither give that to them, they will combine the two or seek something else.

Science is the god of many people now.
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:47 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLEED REBELION!!!
There is no such thing but perception. Reality is all perception.
Dude, the value you assign to reality doesn't affect reality. It's that simple.
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:54 PM   #81
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Interesting, lets explore this perception vs reality a little more.

Lets say some asshole put an improvised explosive device in the road somewhere. They buried it really well, and now nobody can see that it is there.

The next person to drive over it perceives that it is just a normal road. They go merrily along their way, and all of a sudden something really bad happens.

How is this possible? If perception is reality, and everyone's perception is equally valid, then how can we possibly reconcile the fact that something that didn't exist to the driver affected him in such a profound way?
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:57 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
Interesting, lets explore this perception vs reality a little more.

Lets say some asshole put an improvised explosive device in the road somewhere. They buried it really well, and now nobody can see that it is there.

The next person to drive over it perceives that it is just a normal road. They go merrily along their way, and all of a sudden something really bad happens.

How is this possible? If perception is reality, and everyone's perception is equally valid, then how can we possibly reconcile the fact that something that didn't exist to the driver affected him in such a profound way?
Well now.... this is stretching it a bit, don't you think?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_dreams
What the Hell is wrong with you!?!?! who the Hell kill's helpless and innocent babies? that's f***ing sick!!!
Don't you have anything better to do than pollute our forums?!?
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:01 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bella Sophia
Well now.... this is stretching it a bit, don't you think?
Not at all.

We rely on our perceptions to know what reality is. Without perceptions, we'd have no idea. So the best thing to do is to clear your mind of biases and beliefs so that whats going on in your head matches whats going on in reality. Reality won't change for you, you have to clear your mind and not pick and choose beliefs if you want to find truth in life.
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:06 PM   #84
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No, I think there's an objective reality that exists outside our minds. Humans just layer so many things on it without realizing it that we can't separate our biases from the objective reality.
We can only change reality by directly acting upon it in a physical manner.
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:07 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci
We can only change reality by directly acting upon it in a physical manner.
Can you give an example?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_dreams
What the Hell is wrong with you!?!?! who the Hell kill's helpless and innocent babies? that's f***ing sick!!!
Don't you have anything better to do than pollute our forums?!?
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:09 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci
No, I think there's an objective reality that exists outside our minds. Humans just layer so many things on it without realizing it that we can't separate our biases from the objective reality.
We can only change reality by directly acting upon it in a physical manner.
Thats pretty much what I was trying to say Bad with words today I is.

@Bella: Like if you kick a rock. You interact with reality. The rock is kicked. Wanting the rock to roll away with your mind isn't gonna do anything.
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:10 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saya
Thats pretty much what I was trying to say Bad with words today I is.

@Bella: Like if you kick a rock. You interact with reality. The rock is kicked. Wanting the rock to roll away with your mind isn't gonna do anything.
Ah, I understand it now.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_dreams
What the Hell is wrong with you!?!?! who the Hell kill's helpless and innocent babies? that's f***ing sick!!!
Don't you have anything better to do than pollute our forums?!?
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:10 PM   #88
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Ohhhh now that Jonathan was a good question. I liked it a lot. But thats not exactly what I meant. Also keep in ind that I do not have to beleive everythin I post its more so for the sake of argument and because its interesting, although there are a few things I give creedance to.


I'm not saying that If I think the bomb doesnt exst it wont go off. I'm speaking more of doing things to the universe not preventing them. So its more like:

If I know the bomb is there yet I beleive that I can stop it from blowing the shit out of me I can. Assuming of course I have properly developed my will/mind/etc. And that the rest or a significant amount of the universe is in synch with me. People are not helpless victims of reality we create it. Everythign you do creates it.
Normal mundane actions all factor into this equation as well. The decision the fuckface made to put the bomb there carries weight, and usually the bomb will go off and people will be fucked. (So my responce to the bomb things is a stretch and I only posted it for the hell of it. Please ont take it really seriously its not holding the weight in this argument.)


Also I am not only talking of perception, in the sense that you perceive something that exists already. The perception i'm talking of is in regards of wether or not I can use "magick" as defined previously.
I am saying that my perception of my own power and abilty factor into its defintion. If I beleive that I can work the physical universe with my will/mid/being then I have the ability or potential. If I do not then I wont.


Jilli: How much weight I put on reality does effect it. Because the only reality I know is that which I perceive through my own perseption or possibly someone elses if im hella empathic. So while a reality that is completely independent of me may exist, I cant see it. That reality is not a part of my reality. You get me? So we can talk of the many coexisting realities or of the nonexistance of true reality.

.. Im sure Im forgetting something..
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:13 PM   #89
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Actually wanting the rock to roll away with my mind is possible.

Although I speak of more indirect methods. Telekenisis seems to be what you are talking of, which isnt doubted under this theory I suppose.
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:14 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLEED REBELION!!!
Actually wanting the rock to roll away with my mind is possible.

Although I speak of more indirect methods. Telekenisis seems to be what you are talking of, which isnt doubted under this theory I suppose.
You believe in telekinesis?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_dreams
What the Hell is wrong with you!?!?! who the Hell kill's helpless and innocent babies? that's f***ing sick!!!
Don't you have anything better to do than pollute our forums?!?
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:15 PM   #91
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But thats assuming telekenisis exists. Its a cool power for X-men, but thats it.
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:18 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Saya
But thats assuming telekenisis exists. Its a cool power for X-men, but thats it.
If it does exist, it must be deep within the brain, almost unreachable. I imagine a first successful attempt will cause a hell of a head ache.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_dreams
What the Hell is wrong with you!?!?! who the Hell kill's helpless and innocent babies? that's f***ing sick!!!
Don't you have anything better to do than pollute our forums?!?
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:18 PM   #93
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Sure why not? Telekenisis is possible.

Anything is possible. I beleive in the possablity of a lot of "CRAAAAZZYY boo HAAA HAAA".



Besides we dont neccisarily need to effect the universe in such a instant, plain way. It would be much easier for me to kick the rock then spend MASSIVE amounts of time and dedication to simply getthe rock to jiggle a little, and you would need a bit of a predissposition. Somethings are just easier to do in the common way. If it aint broke dont fix it.
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:19 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLEED REBELION!!!
If I know the bomb is there yet I beleive that I can stop it from blowing the shit out of me I can. Assuming of course I have properly developed my will/mind/etc. And that the rest or a significant amount of the universe is in synch with me. People are not helpless victims of reality we create it. Everythign you do creates it.
We create reality by physically acting on it. Whether you know about the bomb or not, you can prevent the bomb from blowing you to bits by changing your mind about going wherever, taking a different route, driving a little faster or a little slower, etc. Of course, if you don't know about the bomb, you can only do this by accident or coincidence.
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:36 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLEED REBELION!!!
Sure why not? Telekenisis is possible.

Anything is possible. I beleive in the possablity of a lot of "CRAAAAZZYY boo HAAA HAAA".



Besides we dont neccisarily need to effect the universe in such a instant, plain way. It would be much easier for me to kick the rock then spend MASSIVE amounts of time and dedication to simply getthe rock to jiggle a little, and you would need a bit of a predissposition. Somethings are just easier to do in the common way. If it aint broke dont fix it.
But if you never perceived telekinesis, how does it exist?
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Old 10-31-2008, 06:03 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Bella Sophia
Well now.... this is stretching it a bit, don't you think?
Yeah Jonathan! Everyone knows that applying Bella's logic to an actual situation is a ridiculous misuse of an argument, stop constructing straw men! The real issue here is that by thinking it, we create a great number of omnipotent deities whose simultaneous existence is antithetical to everything we know of them, therefore meaning that none of them exist! Jesus, Jonathan! What were you thinking?!
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Old 10-31-2008, 10:46 AM   #97
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Saya: I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this question. Do you mean if I have never seen it first hand, then how does it exist in my reality? Or are you saying something else?


JCC: ROFLMAS! That was genuine funny.

But: When you say "whose simultaneous existence is antithetical to everything we know of them" do you mean simultaneous in that more than one God can "exist" at once? I'm pretty sure thats what you're say but I thought I should check just in case.

Your argument doesnt prove anything, no groud.
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Old 10-31-2008, 10:47 AM   #98
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Yeah, I'm saying that in Bella Sophia's strange ultimate subjective universe where thoughts are the creator, every God has to exist at once. The idea that every God can exist at once is antithetical, most of them make it quite clear that they are the only one, so how is that overcome?
The short answer is that it's not, this theory is bollocks.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:03 AM   #99
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EVery god exists in the reality or world of the human(s) that beleive in them. JUst because people claim that their god is the only one that can exist doesnt make it so. Their god is the only one that exists in their reality. Also the "Gods" that people are creating are not conscious beings. They are indeed "energy pools". Again the energy you put out effects the universe. SO The god itself does nto think things in a human way. Rather its energy and push on the world is of the same nature of what ever humans put into it.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:11 AM   #100
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That's fucking stupid. You're saying that if a group of people came up to you and said "Hey, let's go to a hill and put our thoughts together into an energy pool to create an omnipotent being" you wouldn't be like "Wow, the fuck?"
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