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Old 07-16-2010, 11:50 AM   #26
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Ah. Yeah, there's a bit of difference in culture.

I've met jocks and preps who couldn't care less what I wore. And I -am- a Christian, and go to church gothed-up, and no one's said anything negative about it yet. [They actually seem rather delighted by it.]

I don't know what exactly "Wigger" means. Is it a white version of the 'n' word..?
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:02 PM   #27
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I'm rather glad that they got the kids who kicked Sophie to death off the streets.

In the U.S. a few years back Brian Deneke was run over by Dustin Camp who was charged with murder, but got off with voluntary manslaughter, sentenced to 10 years probation and a $10,000 because he was "a good Christian, a good Texan, and a football player" instead of a punk kid.

There's really no way to stop this sort of thing for happening, but it is rather retarded that a murder can be considered less heinous if the perp likes playing football and Jesus, and the victim likes to wear a mohawk.

BTW.. awesome thread necro, there Toxin.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:02 PM   #28
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Oh I thought you all knew that word
A wigger doesn't necessarily mean a white negro because that would basically just be ... A white person.
It's a white version of the black stereotype, who wears pants down past his ass and is under the delusion that he's a gangster when he just hangs around in some little posse.

Yes ape descendant, they did get locked up, but for how long? They should be locked up for years equal to the amount Sophie had left, or just plain killed. Locking people up is simply moving them to another environment, IMO. I feel bad for any goths in that prison. & yeah sorry I tend not to read the date, I found this page on Google.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:24 PM   #29
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Awe, you're fine, Toxin, I think that the subject matter is still pretty relevant.

A couple of the guys got life, some of the other kids only got a few years. Personally, I'm not a fan of the death penalty, I think prison is pretty shitty on its own.

One thing I did notice is that Sophie's case was taken far more seriously. At least the nastiness of the crime was acknowledged... instead of justifying the crime based on what the kid wore.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:31 PM   #30
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Yeah they did have a very good judge. I love how he battered in saying they [attackers] were worse than animals =p
Anyway I'm being begged to play Modern Warfare 2 [it's hard being this good a sniper]; Incase it seems like I'm ignoring you after this post.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:33 PM   #31
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Nah its coo... BTW.. you should totally do an introduction.. it will be fun.
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Old 07-16-2010, 04:35 PM   #32
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You mean in the intro thread or is this a feature I've not heard of? [woops; Slight hijack]
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Old 07-16-2010, 04:59 PM   #33
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In the intro forum. You get to make your very own thread there.
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Old 07-16-2010, 05:21 PM   #34
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While we're on the subject, WTF is with "raising awareness?"
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Old 07-16-2010, 06:21 PM   #35
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:50 PM   #36
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Holy thread necro!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ape descendant View Post
I'm rather glad that they got the kids who kicked Sophie to death off the streets.

In the U.S. a few years back Brian Deneke was run over by Dustin Camp who was charged with murder, but got off with voluntary manslaughter, sentenced to 10 years probation and a $10,000 because he was "a good Christian, a good Texan, and a football player" instead of a punk kid.

There's really no way to stop this sort of thing for happening, but it is rather retarded that a murder can be considered less heinous if the perp likes playing football and Jesus, and the victim likes to wear a mohawk.

BTW.. awesome thread necro, there Toxin.
I remember that, I saw it on City Confidental on A&E and I had to stop watch crime tv after that. It was horrible, the dude had a mohawk and a good job, and the defense attorney had the gall to say he deserved being killed because he was a satanist and according to them, homosexual. Victim precipitation defenses try to be more subtle but I just couldn't believe that the judge would allow such hateful shit as character evidence of the victim. In sexual assault cases we have shield laws for the victim, why don't murder victims?
Dustin Camp did violate his parole so he did spend four years in jail. A joke, but better than nothing I guess.

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Yes ape descendant, they did get locked up, but for how long? They should be locked up for years equal to the amount Sophie had left, or just plain killed. Locking people up is simply moving them to another environment, IMO. I feel bad for any goths in that prison. & yeah sorry I tend not to read the date, I found this page on Google.
They got life sentences. We have no way of knowing how many years a person has left, if she had a year to live would you have been happy with a year sentence? Locking people up is sending them to a pretty bad institution, prisons aren't like free living except in a different location. Its a whole different world especially when you're there for years and years.

As for killing them, well, I don't feel like opening up the death penalty debate, so I'm just going to refer you to Jeremy Irons. You can't argue with Scar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVMho2cP1NE
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Old 07-17-2010, 01:27 AM   #37
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If you're in there for years you get used to it. You know, all this "We have to be humane" crap. People can get used to anything; Even being ass-banged every time they drop the soap.
And it's highly unlikely that someone's gonna naturally die at 20. Unless it's by some illness of course but they're not exactly natural.

Seriously though; Everyone's complaining about how we're low on money, etc... When the government and council spend half of our taxes on fancy buildings for them and churches for the "UK's religion" which for some reason, being a UK citizen, I don't follow, then on top of that so much money is being spent on feeding, housing, and maintaining murderers, rapists, terrorists, and the likes. In a way, they have it better than us. They don't have to pay for shit, while we're grovelling to find a job to feed ourselves and keep our houses.

As for the video ... "Everyone has a right to live"; But what happens when other people take that right from you? We put them in what I call, the "adult naughty corner" [well, that is of course assuming they don't have enough money to pay for a good lye--lawyer]. He's right in one way; I wouldn't trust our government with the death penalty. But I would trust the people with it. I say don't bring back the death penalty, but take away any legal protection people like Ryan Herbert have. That way, it's up to the people of the country to decide how to deal with him. Criminals don't deserve legal protection anyway, if they won't follow the law then the law shouldn't follow them. If only the people of our country had the balls to stand up for themselves.
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Old 07-17-2010, 02:14 AM   #38
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"As the trial opened the prosecution told the hearing: "Sophie and Robert were singled out not for anything they had said or done, but because they looked and dressed differently."

*snip*
+1

Whereas I do believe this was a horrendous crime, I do also feel it has been hijacked a bit. I mean, had the victims been Pakistani, Polish, or even a group of hippies, chances are they still would have been beaten.

Dirty yobs are all the same. We should be focusing on ending them instead of some idea of stopping discrimination against goths particularly. I don't think these people were targeted because they were goth, and to start a campaign to stop violence against goths when what you have is a totally random (by that I mean not pre-planned) attack by a group of eejits seems a bit of a waste of resources.

For those stateside, chavs can't really be compared to anything but they can be described. They wear track suits, trainers (tennis shoes as ye call em), listen to eminem, and basically act like thugs. I wouldn't call them 'wiggers' as they don't try to be black, although their style is a bit the same, they are just general scumbags.

My point being is this - if someone, anyone, walked through a bad part of town at night and were attacked, you can't really write it off as a hate crime. Anyone who was there at that time, hell - even another group of chavs, were probably going to get attacked as the eejits involved were all hopped up on shite and looking to fight.

I think pushing this as some big movement is doing the community a disservice, IMHO.

At the end of the day, what is the goal? The get drunken louts to not start fights when they are off their trolleys? Good luck with that.
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Old 07-17-2010, 02:23 AM   #39
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The answer is not to try making us a protected minority group as those with unchangable differences like skin colour or sexual orientation are, nor is it to give us special protections as we give so many cults and religions. A better plan would be to get better community integration. If you're a goth and you think goths are shunned as freaks, start doing volunteer work and show what a good person you are- get out into the community and prove the stereotypes and ugly viewpoints wrong. Encourage others, non-goths and 'chavs' included, to do so as well.
Brilliant post and by far the best idea posted thus far.
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Old 07-17-2010, 02:29 AM   #40
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Dirty yobs are all the same. We should be focusing on ending them instead of some idea of stopping discrimination against goths particularly.
Exactly Sternn; I want to end them completely. But it's undeniable that they target alternative cultures more than anything else; Atleast speaking from my experiences. They've had blacks, they've even had Muslim blacks, infact I've even known a gay yob before. Yet almost every time I go out, my outfit [no matter how subtle, as long as it has a gothic tint] seems to attract the usual "haw ya mad gawf" comments.

It would be easy enough to end them if the hardest of us went out in long black coats, waited for them to attack us, and ambushed them.

As for the whole encouraging others thing; It seems to work on decent people... But yobs? Tried and tested. Failed. They just laugh at your pitiful attempts to gain their respect. These people want to fight you. They don't care how nice you are; Infact that just makes you an easier target.
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Old 07-17-2010, 04:29 AM   #41
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If you're in there for years you get used to it. You know, all this "We have to be humane" crap. People can get used to anything; Even being ass-banged every time they drop the soap.
And it's highly unlikely that someone's gonna naturally die at 20. Unless it's by some illness of course but they're not exactly natural.
Uh, no, you don't really "get used" to being r@ped. And this is why its really not "humane", because people normalize and tolerate the abuse that goes in within the prisons, and prisoners rarely are able to have their voices heard about it.

And yeah, someone can totally die at age twenty. You can die at any time of natural causes. And I don't think its okay to spend only a few months to a year in prison if you murder an elderly person either.

Quote:
Seriously though; Everyone's complaining about how we're low on money, etc... When the government and council spend half of our taxes on fancy buildings for them and churches for the "UK's religion" which for some reason, being a UK citizen, I don't follow, then on top of that so much money is being spent on feeding, housing, and maintaining murderers, rapists, terrorists, and the likes. In a way, they have it better than us. They don't have to pay for shit, while we're grovelling to find a job to feed ourselves and keep our houses.
I'm sure that most of them would rather have freedom. And the big thing about the death penalty, it is way more expensive than sentencing a man to life. In the US, assuming you don't want to go the way of Iran or China, a person who is sentenced to die gets two trials, one to convict them and another to sentence. After they are sentenced to death they automatically get to appeal that sentences. They wait years and years and years to die, most die of natural causes while they are waiting. And this is what you have to do if you don't want innocent men to die. If you want to legalize the death penalty you have to increase the budget, not cut it.

Quote:
As for the video ... "Everyone has a right to live"; But what happens when other people take that right from you?
I think we're above an "eye for an eye" in society and its long been determined that thats not how justice should be dealt out. We don't r@pe men convicted of sexual assault, we don't cut off the hands of thieves anymore.

Quote:
We put them in what I call, the "adult naughty corner" [well, that is of course assuming they don't have enough money to pay for a good lye--lawyer]. He's right in one way; I wouldn't trust our government with the death penalty. But I would trust the people with it. I say don't bring back the death penalty, but take away any legal protection people like Ryan Herbert have. That way, it's up to the people of the country to decide how to deal with him.
When people are allowed to take justice in their own hands, we had lynchings when they didn't like the colour of your skin. And it WOULD be minorities and the working class who would be torn apart by the mob. Good, Christian white men walk free.

Did you know that a lot of women blame victims of sexual assault for their own r@pe? If we did it this way, sexual assault victims would never see justice either, because they "had it coming" according to most people.

Quote:
Criminals don't deserve legal protection anyway, if they won't follow the law then the law shouldn't follow them. If only the people of our country had the balls to stand up for themselves.
I hope you are never arrested then for something like jaywalking or showing up to a legal protest. Criminals are still human, and all humans deserve human rights and legal protection. If you didn't have legal protection someone could just accuse you of anything and you'd get carried away, without a fair trial you couldn't clear your name, without access to a good lawyer you couldn't do a thing about it, without protection after your conviction you get thrown to the wolves even if you are innocent and would like to appeal. Prisoners would be assaulted by other prisoners and guards alike, there would be no chance for parole for even petty crimes like theft or drug possession. I could go on like this.
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Old 07-17-2010, 05:13 AM   #42
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Wait, someone is suggesting we have trials where the accused is not allowed to have a proper defense and the public gets to determine and execute the punishment?

We've tried that already, and it was a VERY bad idea. You're familiar with the Salem witch trials, right?
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Old 07-18-2010, 04:25 AM   #43
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If you're in there for years you get used to it. You know, all this "We have to be humane" crap. .
Er... there are several reasons to be humane... The biggest and most important reason being, is that some of these fuckers are INNOCENT, and you don't always know for sure who is and who isn't.
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Old 07-18-2010, 09:53 PM   #44
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Gawd I can't stand bullying, and I feel it should definitely be taken seriously by the law as a type of hate crime. High school was such a nightmare for me and people I've witnessed it happening to. Seriously, these kids can be fucking cruel and HATEFUL. Bullying is a type of hate crimeand I feel it should be harshly prosecuted lest we want more instances of Columbine.
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Old 07-19-2010, 06:46 AM   #45
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Ohforfucksakeshewentthere.

Really, Columbine? Are you one of those bleeding hearts that think the whole thing could have been averted if everyone gave the guys a pat on the back once in a while? Mook.

As Ophelia said, this is hardly grounds for a hate crime. A black guy can't stop being black, a Jew is always a Jew, or at least will always be seen as one. If this is anything, it would be ignorance and / or reckless stupidity, not a hate crime. I hate the postal service because they always lose my fucking mail, if I killed them, would that be a hate crime? No, that'd be a pissed-off-stop-losing-my-stuff crime.
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Old 07-19-2010, 07:26 AM   #46
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Lenore, there's already -been- more instances of Columbine. :/ It's just that the perpetrators aren't always teens dressed all in black.

I don't know if anyone's seen it, but the movie "Monster" is based on the true story of a prostitute turned killer. I'm often reminded of it in conversations like this.
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:27 AM   #47
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Gawd I can't stand bullying, and I feel it should definitely be taken seriously by the law as a type of hate crime. High school was such a nightmare for me and people I've witnessed it happening to. Seriously, these kids can be fucking cruel and HATEFUL. Bullying is a type of hate crimeand I feel it should be harshly prosecuted lest we want more instances of Columbine.
Bullying sucks. But, we need to learn how to stand up to bullies when we're young. Kids are little monsters, if you don't have anything obvious to make fun of.. they'll just make something up, and you can't stop them from being cruel, ruthless little monsters... that is what they are.

As far as hate crimes go.. I think its rather retarded to have different laws for different people. I, personally advocate equality under the law.
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Old 07-19-2010, 10:23 AM   #48
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As far as hate crimes go.. I think its rather retarded to have different laws for different people. I, personally advocate equality under the law.
Hate crimes aren't for different people, they're for everyone, a white person can be the victim of a hate crime just as much as a black person. However, the reason to pursue a crime as a hate crime bears down a heavier sentence on a crime that otherwise would get a light sentence. For example, the murder of a transwoman by a man that felt he was "deceived" and killed her when he found out that she was trans. If pursued as any kind of murder a jury would probably feel sympathetic and would blame the victim for not disclosing that she was trans. As a hate crime case, however, we work from the angle that discriminating against transsexuals is just as bad as killing someone if they were black or Christian or whatever, the jury can't give him a lighter sentence and would be more likely to sympathize with the victim.

In this case, was it a hate crime? Debatable but they did get life sentences and it got tons of media attention, whereas something like 1 in 12 transsexuals are murdered and cases do not get much attention. You could argue that like most young, white women who are murdered she is still apart of a class that will get much attention (and she did get a lot), despite whatever she happened to wear at the time.
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Old 07-19-2010, 12:05 PM   #49
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Ohforfucksakeshewentthere.

Really, Columbine? Are you one of those bleeding hearts that think the whole thing could have been averted if everyone gave the guys a pat on the back once in a while? Mook.

As Ophelia said, this is hardly grounds for a hate crime. A black guy can't stop being black, a Jew is always a Jew, or at least will always be seen as one. If this is anything, it would be ignorance and / or reckless stupidity, not a hate crime. I hate the postal service because they always lose my fucking mail, if I killed them, would that be a hate crime? No, that'd be a pissed-off-stop-losing-my-stuff crime.
I'm no bleeding heart, trust me. but bullying can and does breed a lot of hate in people. Enough to where they feel they have no other option.
I feel for those boys. Not in what they did, but the pain they must have felt.
or any kid who kills themselves over bullying.
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Old 07-19-2010, 12:25 PM   #50
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I'm no bleeding heart, trust me. but bullying can and does breed a lot of hate in people. Enough to where they feel they have no other option.
I feel for those boys. Not in what they did, but the pain they must have felt.
or any kid who kills themselves over bullying.
It's often been pointed out that the boys were bullies themselves, picking on freshmen and sophomore and their list largely consisted of people who had already graduated.

If you're not a bleeding heart, why do you sympathize with heartless little nihilists who think that gunning down fellow students and teachers is the answer to their problems?
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