Katrina and NOLA flood Politics...

[Spazik]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Generalized opinions based on no solid evidence and dripping with bias isn't the way to make your point.

Robert Kennedy Jr suggested that Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour, when speaking of her politics, said "Perhaps it was Barbour’s memo that caused Katrina, at the last moment, to spare New Orleans and save its worst flailings for the Mississippi coast."

Comments like that are uncalled for and tasteless now or ever. But he comes by in naturally (THAT can be proven, at least his uncles, cousins and grandfather) but shit like that is why the party is no longer what it was, which used to stand for something.

But you yourself said you won't vote. And you won't denounce that type of thing (like we denounce godhatesfags.com) so by your lack of actions we are guaranteed another win in 08.

What "evidence" do you want? Are you denying that the national guard is deployed in foreign countries, or that funding for other government programs have been cut to pay for the war? Why should I have to provide evidence for things that are (or should be) common knowledge?

[AlKilyu]

I'm saying broad comments like "Republians are already lambasting others for blaming bush, because they know it's true and it's how they write off other people's opinions."

Do you have a signed petition from the GOP with everyone's sig on it stating that they said/think that?

You hate American politics anyway, and you'll never be able to vote, so why must I explain further?

"Why do Democrat's hate America!?!?" And the answer is...?

Is now the time to be partisan and blame a political party, or is it time to help and heal, and eventually hone the system so that this doesn't happen again?

[Spazik]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

I'm saying broad comments like "Republians are already lambasting others for blaming bush, because they know it's true and it's how they write off other people's opinions."

Do you have a signed petition from the GOP with everyone's sig on it stating that they said/think that?

You hate American politics anyway, and you'll never be able to vote, so why must I explain further?

"Why do Democrat's hate America!?!?" And the answer is...?

Is now the time to be partisan and blame a political party, or is it time to help and heal, and eventually hone the system so that this doesn't happen again?

Yet you support president Bush, who even though he claimed to be a "Uniter, not a divider" in his campaign, he's driven this country to one of the most partisan states it's ever been in, not to mention the fact that he and his senate cronies have managed to take a $267 billion dollar budget surplus that Clinton gave them and turned it into a $461 billion dollar budget deficet. Aren't republicans supposed to be the party of financial stability? Add that to the cutting of the estate tax, which widens the gap between rich and poor and loses another $70 billion a year for our country, and it's clear that the only way to heal our nation is to send the Neo Cons back to the abyss they spawned from.

*Spazik out*

[AlKilyu]

Who is dividing the country? I've never seen a Republican get tickets to Clinton's inaguration just to protest. We're too busy working and paying taxes to do all the protesting they seem to have time before.

And get your facts straight: Gingrich balanced that budget along with the rest of the predominantly GOP congress, not Clinton.

Keep calling us names and making broad sweeping generalizations...by the time your state-issued anklet comes off President Giuliani will have taken office as Executive Chief.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

May I simply say that it would please me greatly if this didnt have to become a 'party' issue..

There are unforgivable mistakes being made by both Democrats and Republicans..


I myself am so conflicted and overwhelmed with emotion and information I dont know who to hang for all of this uneeded heartbreak and devastation.

And Governor Blanco should be impeached for not having the slightest motherfucking idea what she is doing, and for REFUSING President Bush's plea to declare Martial Law.

Without Martial Law being declared, the federal government has to facilitate everything through and follow the directive of local state government. She has to make sure their needs are known. And this stupid cunt doesn't want to lose face by saying she can't handle the situation..

Isn't there some sort of fail safe in place, in the event a Governor will not declare martial law when it is necessary??

Binkie? Anyone ?

I am just so shredded right now.. With this and the pain, if I could scream until I finally imploded, that would be okay with me..

Fucking Whee..

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars

May I simply say that it would please me greatly if this didnt have to become a 'party' issue..

There are unforgivable mistakes being made by both Democrats and Republicans..


I myself am so conflicted and overwhelmed with emotion and information I dont know who to hang for all of this uneeded heartbreak and devastation.

And Governor Blanco should be impeached for not having the slightest motherfucking idea what she is doing, and for REFUSING President Bush's plea to declare Martial Law.

Without Martial Law being declared, the federal government has to facilitate everything through and follow the directive of local state government. She has to make sure their needs are known. And this stupid cunt doesn't want to lose face by saying she can't handle the situation..

Isn't there some sort of fail safe in place, in the event a Governor will not declare martial law when it is necessary??

Binkie? Anyone ?

I am just so shredded right now.. With this and the pain, if I could scream until I finally imploded, that would be okay with me..

Fucking Whee..

The federal government pre-empts local and state government in its responsibility to act quickly, so the lack of Martial Law and anything the local and / or state governement does or does not do is absolutely no excuse for any lack of federal action or expediency of federal action. State and local gov can't be expected to deal with stuff this big. The feds should have had the city evacuated before the hurricane hit.

I don't know about not blaming one party or the other, on the one hand Bush did get the money cut to building up the levees, on the other, the reason the feds have the responsibility to act quickly pre-empting state and local gov is from the 2004 National Response Plan.

[AlKilyu]

EPS there were 300 buses owned by the city (not counting their transit system) whose purpose was to evacuate in times of emergency that sat there unused. The mayor waited a whole day before declairing an emergency, and that was begrudgingly at Bush's insisting. It's a given fed help won't get there any sooner than 48 hours, the mayor knew that.

One provision states this: 'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses ... may be used to provide transportation to individuals who need assistance.' But those government vehicles were not used on a large scale. Instead, Governor Kathleen Blanco and Mayor Ray Nagin decided to allow residents to stay if they wanted, even though a mandatory evacuation order had been issued before the storm hit. Most city buses stood idle, and Mayor Nagin still has not explained why a 'mandatory evacuation' is not mandatory.

Bob Williams, who also examined the response to Katrina. "It was just a crisis of leadership," Williams stated. "New Orleans had a contingency plan, but they did nothing. The most crucial time in a hurricane is not the 48 hours after, but the 72 hours prior. The first responders are the city and the state, and the Governor did not fully activate that state emergency operating center, and did not have communication with the Mayor."


Oops I just saw where you pointed out Bush's urging...sorry!

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

I have spent the last three hours on the phone with refugees that are on high ground in the French Quarter.

These people are safe and dry, but they have pets with them..

This one family has two 17 year old dogs who need daily meds, and won't leave them behind to die.

They have one day of medicine left for their pet, and the
Gov. ( Brainless Bitch ) Blanco has now said " Leave or the Army will drag you out! ", to the many that are stranded with their animals or others.

They have one day of medicine left for their pet, and the Army has told them leave or we will drag you out, and we are leaving your pets behind to die!

These people are heart broken.. These are members of their family to them, and to be told they are to be dragged out of their home and to abandon their loved ones, is unfuckingforgiveable..

They are in the French Quarter, which is on high ground and sustained little damage..Contrary to uniformed reports by a member who shall remain nameless..

This woman said people are still looting, and the Army just stands there..

But the French Quarter is relatively intact..

No water..

I have called everybody but Jesus Christ himself to try and get help for them, and all of the others and I am friggin pissed off..

I cant do anything to find my missing family, but I will be godamned if I am going to sit here and do nothing while the fuckwads run this show kill everyone's beloved pets..

I even called Senator Mary Landrieu's office and reported it..

Oh and you never called me back Al.

Pft.

/ Implode

[Bodnoirbabe]

Friday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

As floodwaters caused by Hurricane Katrina (search) began to slowly recede with the ruined city's first pumps returning to operation, Nagin authorized law enforcement officers to force the evacuation of the estimated 10,000 residents who refuse to heed orders to leave. The U.S. military is on the scene to help rescue people and keep order, as well as to provide food and water for people still in their homes.

“There is a martial law declaration in place. ... New Orleans may be one of the safest cities in the United States," said New Orleans Police Department Superintendent Eddie Compass.

“We’re getting back to normal,” he said, as authorities reported just three arrests overnight. "We still have thousands of individuals that need to be rescued," he said, but "we're making progress."

“We are in the process of rebuilding New Orleans. It will be bigger and better,” said Director of the Office of Emergency Management Joseph Matthews.

“We’re working together as one to bring New Orleans back again.”

As of Wednesday morning, some 60,000 active duty and National Guard forces were on the ground or in ships in the affected areas, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said.

Officials stressed, however, that it's the job of the police to force evacuations, if necessary.

Police Capt. Marlon Defillo (search) said of the possible forced removal of citizens: "That's an absolute last resort."

In the meantime, "We will continue the search-and-rescue" mission, said Lt. Gen. Joseph Inge, deputy chief of Northern Command, speaking at Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado.

Inge said a survey of oil and gas facilities was ongoing and reconfirmed the use of police in forced evacuations in the disaster area. But by midday Wednesday, none had been reported.

Defillo said police were focusing for now on people who wanted to be rescued.

"I haven't left my house in my life. I don't want to leave," said a frail-looking 86-year-old Anthony Charbonnet, shaking his head as he locked his front door and walked slowly backwards down the steps of the house where he had lived since 1955.

Charbonnet left only after a neighbor assured him: "Things will be OK. It'll be like a vacation." Still protesting, Charbonnet stepped into the ambulance in which soldiers from the Army's 82nd Airborne Division would take him to a helicopter.

Nagin's evacuation order targets those still in the city except those designated to helping with the relief effort. Repeated calls to Nagin's spokeswoman, Tami Frazier, seeking comment were not returned.

Nagin warned that the fetid floodwater could carry disease and that natural gas was leaking all over town.

"This is not a safe environment," Nagin said. "I understand the spirit that's basically, 'I don't want to abandon my city.' It's OK. Leave for a little while. Let us get you to a better place. Let us clean the city up."

Several residents said they heard Nagin's order to leave on portable radios and were reluctantly complying.

Dolores Devron and her husband, Forcell, finally agreed to go. Dolores Devron said she was relieved the couple was allowed to take their dog with them but angry they were ordered out.

"There are dead babies tied to poles and they're dragging us out and leaving the dead babies. That ain't right!" she screamed, waving her arms as she was directed onto a troop carrier truck.

Jefferson Parish president Aaron Broussard was even more blunt.

"Bureaucracy has murdered people in the greater New Orleans area," he said on CBS Tuesday. "Take whatever idiot they have at the top of whatever agency and give me a better idiot. Give me a caring idiot. Give me a sensitive idiot. Just don't give me the same idiot."




http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168644,00.html


So has Martial Law finally been declared or what??


I just talked to a man who said he finally got his family out, but that the Coast Guard watched his grandmother have a stroke and die and did nothing, they did not even attempt CPR for her..They just shrugged their shoulders..


What the FUCK??

[edible_eye]

for anyone who takes offense to what i've written here, and i'm sure some will - hell, maybe everyone will, please understand that i do feel sadness for everyone and anyone who is still waiting to hear from friends and loved ones. that doesn't cange.
------------------------------------------------

michael moore is a fool. every time he opens his mouth, he proves it yet again.

---------------------------------------------

and, peter - you're wrong about state vs. federal government. eps hit the nail on the head.

---------------------------------------------

i wanted to stay out of this because i have no vested interest in any of the affected areas - other than the fact that the refugees or evacuees or whatever they're asking to be called for the sake of political correctness, in their time of need, are - and will continue to filter their way elsewhere across the country. some of them are legal citizens, many of them are not. the financial burden for this will extend to many of us who were not directly affected for possibly years to come, the same as it would if they remained in new orleans, obviously - but now it will be in our own backyard and as such, our state tax revenues will be stretched just a bit more thin. the concept of charity in this country will be challenged in a whole, new way - whereas we are usually content to write a check and mail it off in a time of need, allowing "someone else" to handle the physical interventions, we are now facing the prospect of actually BEING our brother's keeper, of welcoming people into our towns and for those who feel the need to enter the spotlight, perhaps harbor extreme guilt or to a lesser degree have a true streak of altruism, into their homes thusly ensuring their housing, daily living expenses, medical care, transportation, etc. to the tune of 1.3 million people - a fair percentage of whom remain illegal aliens, like i said earlier. here in massachusetts, we've decided to accept 2500 of the displaced and in doing so, have streamlined or bypassed many criteria that children living in our state have to adhere to in order to attend school. in the grand scheme, that's all well and good for i'd rather have the children in school (if they have to be here) than prowling the streets, however i also have to wonder, in the fine print, whether or not all of the children coming to the area and entering our school system have actually had their vaccines - especially the illegal aliens - and whether or not my own children have the potential for exposure to something they wouldn't have otherwise.

that's not to say i don't realize or appreciate the significant tragedy of the situation - i'm not a thoroughly heartless bastard - it's just that the only way i feel i can get involved in this discussion is from a cold distance. i see and hear reports of people welcoming others into their homes right now, in the thick of it, while the cameras are on and the news reporters are lauding their generosity. what will happen to these same people when their host families realize that the ones they've accepted are messy, have no interest in working or have no skills to find a job, drink excessively or use drugs, are severely depressed, traumatized, might possibly pose a threat to the families or the area into which they are welcomed - or when the news reporters dry up and really, no one cares any longer that they've done their good deed? what then?

it's natural, in a good-human, intact-conscience way to want to help - especially when you or i cast a glance at the absolute devastation that has befallen the area. everything there is just gone. it's also natural, i believe, for the ones affected, to shed their tears and then set about rebuilding their life after such a catastrophe has befallen them. those who are easily moved, on a whim, from one place to another as long as a government check finds its way to their home don't fit that criteria - in my opinion.

i'm disgusted that a city which existed beneath sea level and was subjected to hurricanes annually had no tried and true shelter, relief and / or evacuation plan set in stone. how is that possible? the planning by the local and state government, town boards and individual citizenry was truly pathetic, wholly ignorant and for what it's worth - responsible for setting the stage of the whole botched drama which has followed. louisiana government failed its people.

every year, i've heard of concern regarding the potential for flooding, specifically concerning the levee system when a storm has ripped through there, only to be replaced by the "we made it through again" relief, as though the city were carving another notch in its belt. how they couldn't have a decent emergency plan in place throughout it all is mind-boggling. really. bussing people en masse away from their homeland now brings to mind a legion of people who have grown to rely so specifically on the government for their livlihood, they have not the mental capacity to decide on their own future. they yell, they scream, they get on a bus and they wait for their next check.

relying on the government to such a degree has paralyzed them. and in their paralysis, they are set up to fail in everything they do for the system that supports them is a failure in itself in its bizarre attempts to regulate every aspect of their lives.

the race issue is an old, tired and played out hand. it adds nothing to the discussion. it diverts attention from the real issue - citizens in this country have to start taking more responsibility for themselves. relying on the government to save you in a time of crisis doesn't work. by the time they get around to it - it might be too late.

-----------------------------------------------

ok. that said, this is why i disagree with you, peter -

state and local government absolutely ARE responsible for their own, over and above the federal level. the epicenter is local, expanding out to state and finally to federal. the federal government can not arbitrarily enter a local or state jurisdiction and take command. the feds must be invited in and one way for that to happen is to declare a state of emergency. or better put, local and state government must declare that they've lost control.

the mayor of new orleans was incompetent - i'd even go so far as to say he's responsible for the rapes and deaths of those in the superdome. the governor of louisiana was incompetent. their ability to effectively deal with a crisis led to people's death. and all they can do now is point fingers elsewhere.

the federal government, now that they are involved, have shown a rather poor response to cleaning up the mess - but they should have been involved right from the start. there should not have been a delay. but the government is the government. they're not a bunch of gods who can snap their fingers and instantly reverse the horror that was set in motion. when a full truck is starting to slip over the side of a cliff, there's no guarantee it can be pulled back onto flat ground just because you finally get around to calling in the strongest equipment. and if you wait too long to call in that equipment, you can't then blame it for not rectifying the problem to begin with. the mayor and the governor were entrusted to care for the people of louisiana. they failed.

the weather will do what the weather always does. what new orleans has suffered and what we've all bore witness to and still bear witness to is the failing of man. the government is a massive, lumbering beast, not an omnipotent entity and for anyone who ascribes to the latter philosophy, they are doomed to be disappointed again and again.

[AlKilyu]

Fuck me e_e, there were a whole mess of nails and your Thor-like hammer nailed em all.

I could have sworn it was a known fact the federal goverment can't get there (distance, etc) for a set number of hours, I'll have to look that up again.

Look at the 300 unused buses that could have taken people out.

MANDITORY means just that. The mayor let those stay who wanted to and thereby undermined that very word, but then again workers (that the city didn't dispatch) shouldn't have to be tied up, wasting valuble time, arguing with someone as to why they should get the fuck out of Dodge. True most left behind did not have the means to leave, that's where the city dropped the ball.

If that were a city never before hit by such a storm, and not been under the lumming levy that threatened them with multiple warnings to fix it, in other words, if they had no previous idea of such horrors that might hit their city, I could understand. But last year alone how many hurricanes did the gulf states get? Evacuate if a hurricane is on the way, no brainer. Evacuate if a deteriorating wall holding back a lake hung over their heads, shouldn't the area directly under it at least be empty?

Michael Moore could double as a flotation device once diabetes sets in or he could do the right thing and stick his head under and breathe deeply...

[Peter]

Originally Posted by edible_eye

and, peter - you're wrong. eps hit the nail on the head.

i wanted to stay out of this because i have no vested interest in any of the affected areas - other than the fact that the refugees or evacuees or whatever they're asking to be called for the sake of political correctness, in their time of need, are - and will continue to filter their way elsewhere across the country. some of them are legal citizens, many of them are not. the financial burden for this will extend to many of us who were not directly affected for possibly years to come, the same as it would if they remained in new orleans, obviously - but now it will be in our own backyard and as such, our state tax revenues will be stretched just a bit more thin. the concept of charity in this country will be challenged in a whole, new way - whereas we are usually content to write a check and mail it off in a time of need, allowing "someone else" to handle the physical interventions, we are now facing the prospect of actually BEING our brother's keeper, of welcoming people into our towns and for those who feel the need to enter the spotlight, perhaps harbor extreme guilt or to a lesser degree have a true streak of altruism, into their homes thusly ensuring their housing, daily living expenses, medical care, transportation, etc. to the tune of 1.3 million people - a fair percentage of whom remain illegal aliens, like i said earlier. here in massachusetts, we've decided to accept 2500 of the displaced and in doing so, have streamlined or bypassed many criteria that children living in our state have to adhere to in order to attend school. in the grand scheme, that's all well and good for i'd rather have the children in school (if they have to be here) than prowling the streets, however i also have to wonder, in the fine print, whether or not all of the children coming to the area and entering our school system have actually had their vaccines - especially the illegal aliens - and whether or not my own children have the potential for exposure to something they wouldn't have otherwise.

that's not to say i don't realize or appreciate the significant tragedy of the situation - i'm not a thoroughly heartless bastard - it's just that the only way i feel i can get involved in this discussion is from a cold distance. i see and hear reports of people welcoming others into their homes right now, in the thick of it, while the cameras are on and the news reporters are lauding their generosity. what will happen to these same people when their host families realize that the ones they've accepted are messy, have no interest in working or have no skills to find a job, drink excessively or use drugs, are severely depressed, traumatized, might possibly pose a threat to the families or the area into which they are welcomed - or when the news reporters dry up and really, no one cares any longer that they've done their good deed? what then?

it's natural, in a good-human, intact-conscience way to want to help - especially when you or i cast a glance at the absolute devastation that has befallen the area. everything there is just gone. it's also natural, i believe, for the ones affected, to shed their tears and then set about rebuilding their life after such a catastrophe has befallen them. those who are easily moved, on a whim, from one place to another as long as a government check finds its way to their home don't fit that criteria - in my opinion.

i'm disgusted that a city which existed beneath sea level and was subjected to hurricanes annually had no tried and true shelter, relief and / or evacuation plan set in stone. how is that possible? the planning by the local and state government, town boards and individual citizenry was truly pathetic, wholly ignorant and for what it's worth - responsible for setting the stage of the whole botched drama which has followed. louisiana government failed its people.

every year, i've heard of concern regarding the potential for flooding, specifically concerning the levee system when a storm has ripped through there, only to be replaced by the "we made it through again" relief, as though the city were carving another notch in its belt. how they couldn't have a decent emergency plan in place throughout it all is mind-boggling. really. bussing people en masse away from their homeland now brings to mind a legion of people who have grown to rely so specifically on the government for their livlihood, they have not the mental capacity to decide on their own future. they yell, they scream, they get on a bus and they wait for their next check.

relying on the government to such a degree has paralyzed them. and in their paralysis, they are set up to fail in everything they do for the system that supports them is a failure in itself in its bizarre attempts to regulate every aspect of their lives.

the race issue is an old, tired and played out hand. it adds nothing to the discussion. it diverts attention from the real issue - citizens in this country have to start taking more responsibility for themselves. relying on the government to save you in a time of crisis doesn't work. by the time they get around to it - it might be too late.

-----------------------------------------------

ok. that said, this is why i disagree with you, peter -

state and local government absolutely ARE responsible for their own, over and above the federal level. the epicenter is local, expanding out to state and finally to federal. the federal government can not arbitrarily enter a local or state jurisdiction and take command. the feds must be invited in and one way for that to happen is to declare a state of emergency. or better put, local and state government must declare that they've lost control.

the mayor of new orleans was incompetent - i'd even go so far as to say he's responsible for the rapes and deaths of those in the superdome. the governor of louisiana was incompetent. their ability to effectively deal with a crisis led to people's death. and all they can do now is point fingers elsewhere.

the federal government, now that they are involved, have shown a rather poor response to cleaning up the mess - but they should have been involved right from the start. there should not have been a delay. but the government is the government. they're not a bunch of gods who can snap their fingers and instantly reverse the horror that was set in motion. when a full truck is starting to slip over the side of a cliff, there's no guarantee it can be pulled back onto flat ground just because you finally get around to calling in the strongest equipment. and if you wait too long to call in that equipment, you can't then blame it for not rectifying the problem to begin with. the mayor and the governor were entrusted to care for the people of louisiana. they failed.

Then the federal government should hand all the money that they spend on homeland security to the state, and they should be the ones who pre-empt the federal government. Suggesting that it is up to local and state authories to look after their own when they simply do not have the resources because the department of homeland security and FEMA do is insane. In this case they absolutely did not and everybody knew this, including the governer of Louisiana and President Bush, yet the feds stayed out the way. The feds have the resources, the state and local government do not.

If you don't like that, take it up with Bush, it's his 2004 National Response Plan that actually states "The federal government pre-empts local and state government in its responsibility to act quickly". Clearly they failed to. Local and state fucked up, but like the Responce Plan says "The federal government pre-empts local and state government in its responsibility to act quickly".

If this were an earthquake, or even a Tsunami I'd be much kinder to the Feds, but Katrina was something they knew about before it hit, and FEMA and Homeland Security did nothing despite having the resources, funding, responsibilty to pre-empt local and state, and the time to do something and they did not. That is unconscionable and fucking shameful. People died and here's you sitting about blaming it all on the people who said they couldn't deal with it, it's unconscionable.

All you seem to be interested in is poo-pooing Michael Moore and doing everything you possibly can including lieing through your teeth to not blame the people charged with the lion's share of responsibility, and that does make you a thoroughly heartless bastard, people die in vain when we learn nothing from our mistakes because we're too busy trying to make our guys look like they didn't fuck up royally. Poor responce my ass, no responce when it actually could have saved the lives they're paid to save.

[Peter]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Fuck me e_e, there were a whole mess of nails and your Thor-like hammer nailed em all.

I could have sworn it was a known fact the federal goverment can't get there (distance, etc) for a set number of hours, I'll have to look that up again.

Look at the 300 unused buses that could have taken people out.

MANDITORY means just that. The mayor let those stay who wanted to and thereby undermined that very word, but then again workers (that the city didn't dispatch) shouldn't have to be tied up, wasting valuble time, arguing with someone as to why they should get the fuck out of Dodge. True most left behind did not have the means to leave, that's where the city dropped the ball.

If that were a city never before hit by such a storm, and not been under the lumming levy that threatened them with multiple warnings to fix it, in other words, if they had no previous idea of such horrors that might hit their city, I could understand. But last year alone how many hurricanes did the gulf states get? Evacuate if a hurricane is on the way, no brainer. Evacuate if a deteriorating wall holding back a lake hung over their heads, shouldn't the area directly under it at least be empty?

Michael Moore could double as a flotation device once diabetes sets in or he could do the right thing and stick his head under and breathe deeply...

FEMA and the president were asked to step in directly in a letter dated 28th August. How many hours are we talking, exactly?

[AlKilyu]

Which letter?

And regarding Homeland Security: What all does that cover?

I'm not a heartless bastard, in fact I suggested holding off on the blame game til the smoke clears. This thing has got everyone calling everyone heartless (I'll ignore yours for your sake) and blasting those (National Guard, Red Cross) who are there to help.

People are pissed this happened and want answers. Fucking wait for them instead of insultng each other and letting instigators such as Moore, who does all he can to cause unrest instead of working together he gets on his cankles and prays for bipartisanship.

Donate, get donations, or fly or drive down to help is ALL anyone can do at this point. Getting all working up does you no good. By 'you' I mean everyone.

[Peter]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Which letter?

And regarding Homeland Security: What all does that cover?

I'm not a heartless bastard, in fact I suggested holding off on the blame game til the smoke clears. This thing has got everyone calling everyone heartless (I'll ignore yours for your sake) and blasting those (National Guard, Red Cross) who are there to help.

People are pissed this happened and want answers. Fucking wait for them instead of insultng each other and letting instigators such as Moore, who does all he can to cause unrest instead of working together he gets on his cankles and prays for bipartisanship.

Donate, get donations, or fly or drive down to help is ALL anyone can do at this point. Getting all working up does you no good. By 'you' I mean everyone.

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20...%20Request.pdf That letter.

And

The new Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has three primary missions: Prevent terrorist attacks within the United States, reduce America's vulnerability to terrorism, and minimize the damage from potential attacks and natural disasters.

Their job.

I'm going to quit posting for a bit now before I get angry.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by Peter

Then the federal government should hand all the money that they spend on homeland security to the state, and they should be the ones who pre-empt the federal government. Suggesting that it is up to local and state authories to look after their own when they simply do not have the resources because the department of homeland security and FEMA do is insane. In this case they absolutely did not and everybody knew this, including the governer of Louisiana and President Bush, yet the feds stayed out the way. The feds have the resources, the state and local government do not.

perhaps things are a bit different in the uk. local and state governments tax the people separately than the feds do. part of the revenue they collect goes toward managing public health and safety - and that's an important piece. PUBLIC HEALTH AND SAFETY. here in massachusetts, if a hurricane were to hit the coast, it would be up to the towns affected as well as the state governmental branches to provide for the people here. if loss of control was imminent, the governor has the power to declare a state of emergency to invite the feds. in.

Originally Posted by peter

If you don't like that, take it up with Bush, it's his 2004 National Response Plan that actually states "The federal government pre-empts local and state government in its responsibility to act quickly". Clearly they failed to. Local and state fucked up, but like the Responce Plan says "The federal government pre-empts local and state government in its responsibility to act quickly".

louisiana has taken the brunt of many a hurricane, peter. this is not the first time such a storm has hit. if bush or the federal government decided to step in whenever a hurricane reared up, the federal government would be busy all year just handling storms about the country. tornadoes, earthquakes, whatever natural disaster might befall whatever state. the bottom line is - a state with a predilection to suffer such catastrophes is required, by the laws of common sense to have a plan to put in action when said disasters become a real potential. they're also required - by written law - to have such a plan in place to protect their citizenry.

Originally Posted by peter

If this were an earthquake, or even a Tsunami I'd be much kinder to the Feds, but Katrina was something they knew about before it hit, and FEMA and Homeland Security did nothing despite having the resources, funding, responsibilty to pre-empt local and state, and the time to do something and they did not. That is unconscionable and fucking shameful. People died and here's you sitting about blaming it all on the people who said they couldn't deal with it, it's unconscionable.

they decided they couldn't handle it after it had started. they decided to ask for help after the damage had begun. i do blame the state and local governments. they were elected and charged with the responsibility of protecting the people who elected them. they failed.

they failed.

and blaming the federal government after the fact doesn't change that.

Originally Posted by peter

All you seem to be interested in is poo-pooing Michael Moore and doing everything you possibly can including lieing through your teeth to not blame the people charged with the lion's share of responsibility, and that does make you a thoroughly heartless bastard, people die in vain when we learn nothing from our mistakes because we're too busy trying to make our guys look like they didn't fuck up royally. Poor responce my ass, no responce when it actually could have saved the lives they're paid to save.

you seem overly fascinated with this lying thing. take a look at michael moore for that. the people with the lion's share of responsibility absolutely IS the louisiana government, including specifically the mayor of new orleans. lives could have been saved, that's true. women could have been spared the rapes they suffered. it was nagin's responsibility to have safe areas set up. it was nagin's responsibility to ensure the people of his city could get to them. it was nagin's responsibility to make sure there was food and water for them. it was nagin's responsibility to make sure there was enough of a security force to ensure the safe areas remained safe. he did none of these things.

blanco had the responsibility to declare loss of control so the federal government could take over. she botched that one, small piece and in doing so, shares the responsibility for the deaths that followed as a result.

the feds got there late becase they were invited late. their response since showing up has been less than exemplary, from all accounts received. doing a door-to-door search and rescue / recovery for however many people remain trapped takes time. but that's the government. that's the way it works. people love to yell and scream and shout about the way they want things done and everyone wants things done right now, this instant. life doesn't work that way and the government absolutely doesn't, no matter how much we're deluded into believeing they do.

i can be a heartless bastard, but i don't believe it's thorough. i still have some feeling in me somewhere.

and as far as the "our guys" comment - their not "my guys". bush has failed me too many times to count. i owe him nothing in terms of praise or supportive rhetoric.

for those that died, i feel sadness for their families, friends and loved ones. that's a shitty thing to endure on any level. and you're right, peter - we should learn from our mistakes and hopefully, what we can all bring out of a tragedy like this is to pay close attention to those we vote into office. it's not a popularity contest, as the media has enjoyed portraying it for so many years. it's a vote to secure leadership in a time of crisis, among other important considerations.

those in charge made sure to hold their annual mardi gras celebration without fail. all that money pouring into the city on a yearly basis. but they forgot to set up an emergency plan in the event of a hurricane that actually did some damage. if i'd lived there, i think i might be a bit pissed at the ones voted into office. they failed their people miserably.

[Peter]

There used to be a post here, but then the cheese people chewed it

[Peter]

Actually forget it, you aren't exactly worth it.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by Peter

There used to be a post here, but then the cheese people chewed it

Did someone delete your post??

Seriously..

If that kind of shit is really happening, I want to know..

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars

Did someone delete your post??

Seriously..

If that kind of shit is really happening, I want to know..

I edited it.

I've only had one post deleted that I know about and that wasn't hugely important, but to me, that's enough if it isn't explained or justified.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by Peter

I edited it.

I've only had one post deleted that I know about and that wasn't hugely important, but to me, that's enough if it isn't explained or justified.

Just making sure, nothing else funky had happened..

[edible_eye]

actually, i'd like to know that also. if we can't have a conversation, even if it gets heated, then i guess i'm done with politics here.

and peter - even if you get rip-roaring pissed at me, this isn't personal - at least on my end. it's interesting to me how you absorb this stuff and throw it back in an almost vengeful way.

[after peter's edit] ah. gotcha. guess we're done then.

[AlKilyu]

Yeah Peter I dig ya but if you are gonna get pissed over this, to the point of calling the nicest guy here names, I can't defend you.

We're above the guy who wanted to send a lifejacket to Poppy, HE fits that description.

[Peter]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Yeah Peter I dig ya but if you are gonna get pissed over this, to the point of calling the nicest guy here names, I can't defend you.

We're above the guy who wanted to send a lifejacket to Poppy, HE fits that description.

Hmm, I still think he's an idiot, generally nice guy or not, it's the reality distortion mostly, never asked for help, too late, the state and local more responsible despite the feds actually being intentionally put forward as being more responsible as part of the plan of action in disasters, that sort of stuff, it simply isn't true, but there's no arguing against it. You can have as many facts as you like and it doesn't matter - not worth it.

However, there are degrees and some of things I said were out of line, so I do apologise for calling you thoroughly heartless, edible.

And I know that this post is probably almost the opposite of what you think I should say, but I think intellectual dishonesty is abhorant. I can defend myself, but I know you didn't mean it like that, and I do appreciate the sentiment of what you intended.