Does anyone else hate politics as much as I do? - Page 9

annwn · 03-18-2010, 06:59 PM

"Black people, who have the lowest income in the United States, now have a higher standard of living than an ordinary Swedish household," the HUI economists said.

If Sweden were a U.S. state, it would be the poorest measured by household gross income before taxes, Bergstrom and Gidehag said. . . .

The median income of African American households was about 70 percent of the median for all U.S. households while Swedish households earned 68 percent of the overall U.S. median level.

This meant that Swedes stood "below groups which in the Swedish debate are usually regarded as poor and losers in the American economy," Bergstrom and Gidehag said.

Between 1980 and 1999, the gross income of Sweden's poorest households increased by just over six percent while the poorest in the United States enjoyed a three times higher increase, HUI said.

http://www.mail-archive.com/armchair.../msg02915.html

annwn · 03-18-2010, 07:00 PM

So your better off as a black person in Mississippi than as a blonde white person in the vapid socialist wasteland of Sweden.

Entropic · 03-18-2010, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annwn

Let me be a little clearer then:

The ideal politics is the kind that allows as little of government intrusion into the lives of its citizens as possible. 'Curbing politics' was a little too metaphorical. Curbing the powers and reach of government is more precise.

Still waiting for you to cite your source, and answer for that non-sequitur.

I hardly agree that this is the ideal kind of politics. Unless you're going to argue that as few politics as possible is your bridge to anarchism (and if that's the case, then I can't comment, as I'm not an anarchist), you have to admit that the state has a role in the lives of it's citizens. When you judge states by how effective they are, using various measures like lifespan, general wellbeing, violence and crime, equality among classes and genders, you'll find that moderate governments like Scandinavian countries are generally the most successful.

Your article is poor quality:

"The study by a retail trade lobby", "Swedish Research Institute of Trade", "They said they had chosen that measure for their comparison to get around the differences in taxation and welfare structures."

Poor methodology, biased researchers, published in a non-peer reviewed source.

annwn · 03-18-2010, 07:10 PM

Peer-reviewed....as in 'Global Warming is true because it's peer-reviewed'?

[OK, that was cold!]

Entropic · 03-18-2010, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annwn

Peer-reviewed....as in 'Global Warming is true because it's peer-reviewed'?

[OK, that was cold!]

No, as in "coming from any other source than a Newspaper, and published by any group other than a set of lobbyists".

[OK, that was logical!]

annwn · 03-18-2010, 07:14 PM

The source, of course, was a Swedish government one: The Swedish Research Institute of Trade (HUI). The citations from that above article are from that. To post a link to the original HUI article would be time consuming and unnecessary. You now know what it says as I do. Kinda futile arging against it.

Entropic · 03-18-2010, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annwn

The source, of course, was a Swedish government one: The Swedish Research Institute of Trade (HUI). The citations from that above article are from that. To post a link to the original HUI article would be time consuming and unnecessary. You now know what it says as I do. Kinda futile arging against it.

Did you even bother to look up what HUI is, or did you just blindly eat up any reference you could use?

This is a direct quotation of HUI's website:

HUI is owned by The Swedish Trade Association.

So, it's a government organization... how?

Oh, and how is it time consuming to post a link? I didn't know ctrl+c and ctrl+v was that time consuming.

annwn · 03-18-2010, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entropic

Did you even bother to look up what HUI is, or did you just blindly eat up any reference you could use?

This is a direct quotation of HUI's website:

HUI is owned by The Swedish Trade Association.

So, it's a government organization... how?

Oh, and how is it time consuming to post a link? I didn't know ctrl+c and ctrl+v was that time consuming.

I admire you googling skills!

You're much faster and more persistent than I am in tracking things down. I, however, am doing three things at once, so I'm a little slower.

Nevertheless, the facts are there.

They're wrong where exactly?

Entropic · 03-18-2010, 07:27 PM

I admire your skills at not verifying your own sources!

For one, they're unverified facts until you actually present data tables.

Second, they're using adjusted PPP to avoid the fact that Sweden has a far bigger social safety net than the United States does.

Third, they report the median income, and not the variation between the groups. In other words, you could have a small subset of black people who make extreme amounts of money and a large subset of black people who make little amount of money, and still get a better median income than a group of Swedes who all make roughly the same.

Alan · 03-18-2010, 07:32 PM

I just want to point out that the author of that article, Alypius Skinner, is a white nationalist.
So not only, as Entropic mentioned, is it not peer reviewed, but he is hardly an authoritative figure, and in fact, it would even be ridiculous to assume that he is even trying to be objective.

annwn · 03-18-2010, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan

I just want to point out that the author of that article, Alypius Skinner, is a white nationalist.
So not only, as Entropic mentioned, is it not peer reviewed, but he is hardly an authoritative figure, and in fact, it would even be ridiculous to assume that he is even trying to be objective.

NoNoNo...forget in which article it was cited. I just pulled the most immediate one. It's the HUI study itself that you need to pay attention to.

Bending yourself into pretzels trying to make black white and white black will have no effect than to make you feel better about things.

It is what it is, folks.

Entropic · 03-18-2010, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annwn

NoNoNo...forget in which article it was cited. I just pulled the most immediate one. It's the HUI study itself that you need to pay attention to.

You mean the one you didn't give us?

Quote:

Originally Posted by annwn

To post a link to the original HUI article would be time consuming and unnecessary.

=D

annwn · 03-18-2010, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entropic

I admire your skills at not verifying your own sources!

For one, they're unverified facts until you actually present data tables.

Second, they're using adjusted PPP to avoid the fact that Sweden has a far bigger social safety net than the United States does.

Third, they report the median income, and not the variation between the groups. In other words, you could have a small subset of black people who make extreme amounts of money and a large subset of black people who make little amount of money, and still get a better median income than a group of Swedes who all make roughly the same.

OK, let me pull these data tables out of my ass.....

Aren't you confusing 'median income' with 'average income' here?

I'm going back MANY years to scrounge this out, but, if memory serves, a MEDIAN number of 'x' means that there are as many below that number as are above it. 'Average' is self-explanatory, and that's why averages are more misleading. The MEDIAN income for the US is-what?--$47,000./$48,000. for a family of 4? That means that there are as many people making more and $48,000. as are making less.

annwn · 03-18-2010, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entropic

You mean the one you didn't give us?

=D

This is silly and pedantic!

The facts are above. Deal with them.

Entropic · 03-18-2010, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annwn

OK, let me pull these data tables out of my ass.....

Aren't you confusing 'median income' with 'average income' here?

I'm going back MANY years to scrounge this out, but, if memory serves, a MEDIAN number of 'x' means that there are as many below that number as are above it. 'Average' is self-explanatory, and that's why averages are more misleading. The MEDIAN income for the US is-what?--$47,000./$48,000. for a family of 4? That means that there are as many people making more and $48,000. as are making less.

Hey, it's your source. If you can't back it up, that's your own damn fault.

Median is generally the middle number of a properly ordered series. So if you have 1, 1, 1, 1, 4, 5, 6 and 7 then 4 is the median, which means you have a large group of 1s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by annwn

This is silly and pedantic!

The facts are above. Deal with them.

No, u!

The facts aren't above. You didn't give us data to work with. You gave us assertions.

Saya · 03-18-2010, 07:59 PM

Not to mention that even if it was true, Sweden enjoys a better standard of living (source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/country_profiles/1021823.stm) and also their average household is much smaller than the average American household (source:http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/pe...-of-households), even if the poor of the nation's families were making a bit more than the average swedish family, the average swedish family have fewer mouths to feed.

Actually there's a lot of things it never seemed to take into account, which is probably why this wasn't peer reviewed.

annwn · 03-18-2010, 08:04 PM

Since I couldn't find the original apart from a link to a Swedish language site, this will have to do:

http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit-...ves/003594.php

It also includes a precis of an article that attempts to counter the original, as well as a summary of a third whose position falls between the two.

Alan · 03-18-2010, 08:04 PM

You two have the right definition of Median.
You're talking about exactly the same thing.
And in fact I will argue that it was good they used median income instead of average income. However, Saya beat me to it in the fact that this only shows the deficiency of using exclusively income to measure well-being.
That's the reason political scientists and other organizations now prefer to use the Human Development Index as an indicator of progress. You don't need a lot of money in a country where you have assured healthcare, education, housing, transportation, childcare, retirement, et cetera.

The argument is the same as saying that the poor people in New York have it made because the poverty line in NY is even bigger than the average income where I live.

annwn · 03-18-2010, 08:12 PM

A government that supplies its citizens with all the necessities of life is doomed, because eventually, the only way to control costs will be to limit access.

I live in Canada. Ask my about my experiences in our health care system and ask me about how I had to to to the clinic in Petostkey, Michigan to get immediate service and pay out of pocket, and by that stage gladly, too.

Entropic · 03-18-2010, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annwn

Since I couldn't find the original apart from a link to a Swedish language site, this will have to do:

http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit-...ves/003594.php

It also includes a precis of an article that attempts to counter the original, as well as a summary of a third whose position falls between the two.

Again, you aren't looking at the source material. The first and second article, again, don't link to any useful numbers. In fact, they don't link to articles at all. They link to 404 pages. The third article is an editorial, barely has any numbers in it at all.

All you managed to do was rehash the original article in to a bulletpoint format.

Saya · 03-18-2010, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annwn

A government that supplies its citizens with all the necessities of life is doomed, because eventually, the only way to control costs will be to limit access.

I live in Canada. Ask my about my experiences in our health care system and ask me about how I had to to to the clinic in Petostkey, Michigan to get immediate service and pay out of pocket, and by that stage gladly, too.

I'm in Canada too. So you're wealthy enough to buy your healthcare, well, I'm not and I'd be deaf right now if I grew up in the states.

annwn · 03-18-2010, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entropic

Again, you aren't looking at the source material. The first and second article, again, don't link to any useful numbers. In fact, they don't link to articles at all. They link to 404 pages. The third article is an editorial, barely has any numbers in it at all.

All you managed to do was rehash the original article in to a bulletpoint format.

That's nice...it's all made up and all an illusion.

Feel better?