Christianity: Too controlling?

[spookypurple]

Exactly!

What I was referring to are the people who are very quick to point out who's wrong and they forget that they're not the only ones with an opinion!

That doesn't sound quite right. But I hope you know what I mean...

[OnixxFilth]

I know what you mean

[spookypurple]

Thank you.

[Ben Lahnger]

There is NO god (since everyone asked by perpetuating this thread).

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YOU DON'T HAVE A PRAYER from www.thisistrue.com:

A study of more than 1,800 heart bypass operations shows that praying for the patient has no effect on recovery rates. In fact, the $2.4 million Harvard Medical School study shows, if the patient knows he's being prayed over, complication rates increased, perhaps because the patients figured they were in bad shape if they needed prayers. (Washington Post)

...Worse, other studies have shown that praying that your medical insurance will cover the operation isn't effective either.

-----------------------

This isn't the first time I've seen studies like this, and it won't be the last. I don't know how much evidence people need beyond the random, inexplicable tragedy and choas that happens in every day life to good and bad people alike, but this is enough for me.

[Godslayer Jillian]

On thursday, my friend and I were talking about WWII, and I asked him that wasn't Hitler a Christian? He answered me "yeah, he believed in Christ and the Lord"
My friend is a Christian, but I couldn't help myself to ask him "So, then, you're saying I'm going to hell, but Hitler's in heaven?"
He never gave me an answer

[A Simple Poet]

I think Hitler may have identified himself as Protestant, as opposed to let's say Jewish or Catholic. But that does not believe he was a Christian. It is likely he claimed to be one for propganda purposes, but there is something not quite Christ like in ordering the death of millions while trying to conquer the world. I for one do not believe Hitler genuinely repented in the end and (much like Judas) is not in heaven for that very reason.

I happen to be a Christian and I don't think that the message of Christ is too controlling at all. Jesus did not like the establishement any more than we do, and those that kill in his name or try to manipulate dogma need to realize that Christ came as atonement for sin. It is up to the individual to accept that or not and no one has any business forcing these ideas down anyones throat. If a person reads the red letters in their Bible, that is what it is about. God incarnate. He is telling you what to do. He wants the relationship with you. It's not even so much about Heaven and Hell (though it is reasonable to assume that if you want to be with God in life you'll be where He is in death) as it is about the relationship with God.

Again, before the sqwawking begins, it is about whether or not you believe in this stuff. The doctrine of Christianity is not controlling, it's the intolerant people who claim to be Christian to force their agenda in the name of God, that are.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Oh, but Hitler was indeed Christian. And what they have taught me in that school is that, for Christians, the only way to enter heaven is to believe in Christ.
The exact words they alway tell me, with no area for interpretations is that "we are not saved by good works; we are saved by grace"
Every Baptist sent my way to try to convert me says that it doesn't matter if you are the best person in the world; if you don't believe in Jesus, you're going to hell. And even the worst criminal, if he believes in Jesus, enters heaven.

[A Simple Poet]

Jillian wrote:

Oh, but Hitler was indeed Christian.

I would be interested in seeing the documentation. I have seen articles proclaiming him to be a Wicca and a Satanist as well. But Christian, I think even the Malevolant Moustache himself would laugh at that. I'm not doubting your word Jillian, I just don't buy it from whoever told that to you.

Jillian wrote:

Every Baptist sent my way to try to convert me says that it doesn't matter if you are the best person in the world; if you don't believe in Jesus, you're going to hell. And even the worst criminal, if he believes in Jesus, enters heaven.

Belief in the divinity and salvation offered by Christ alone is the essential core foundation of Christianity. I believe what the Baptists are try to tell you. What I don't believe is that every criminal who is cooked that has a sudden epiphany in the end is genuine. Only God can judge the hearts of men. Similiarly, millions of people lived and died before Jesus was born. Did they all go to Hell? No. It has to do with the Testaments. In the Old One, people believed in God and burnt a lot of cows and goats because that is what God commanded to absolve them of their sins. But he could see into their hearts to see if they meant it or if it was some ceremony they were doing to get to heaven. The ones that want to love God and have that relationship did those sacrifices (as grisly as it sounds). In the New Testament, God decided to listen to PITA and made His Son the once and for all sacrifice and set down new guidelines. Again, it is about faith and seeking the relationship with God but with a polarizing figure claiming to be God himself as the sacrifice as the catalyst. And again, God can judge the hearts of men when it comes to the question of sincerity.

That's how I see it. I don't mean to get onto a big soapbox here...Sorry.

[Godslayer Jillian]

It is actually commonly known that he was raised a Catholic and was indeed a devout Christian.
I bet you you can even find it in the wikipedia. One of the main reasons for his anti-semitism is that he believed in the medieval belief that all jews were responsible for Christ's death.
Oh, and, I think you're not understanding what I mean with believing in Christ.
I'm not saying that if, in your last seconds of life, you repent, then you can go to Heaven. That actually sounds a little logic.
But what I'm saying, is that they have taught me that he DIDN'T need to repent for all those deaths.
You know why?
Because he believed Christ is his messiah.
It's that easy.


"It's easier to enter heaven than to enter Arizona"
- Ned Flanders

[A Simple Poet]

Jillian wrote:

They have taught me that he DIDN'T need to repent for all those deaths.
You know why?
Because he believed Christ is his messiah.
It's that easy.

Balderdash. You have to repent and believe. Whoever is telling you that is wrong. And I can see what you are saying about Hilter seemingly justifying his actions because the Jewish people crucified Christ. But that thought is nonsense too. Christ forgave them "because they know (knew) not what they do (did)". And though this has been a nice debate, Jillian, (It's nice having a productive exchange of information without people getting all whopperjawed) I'll never be convinced that Hitler was a genuine Christian. In fact, I believe he was possessed. Just like how the Bible says that Satan "entered" Judas, I think Satan entered Hitler, and when the AntiChrist of Revelation shows up, I think Satan will eneter him too to fake a ressurrection.

[Cambodian Breakfast]

Organization is a form of control. Thefor Organized religion is controling. That is how it has been and how it will be. They will tell you how to live and what to do. Live a good life is all you should do.

[Sobeh]

You've got a plethora of ideas about who gets saved and who doesn't: from 144,000 exactly to, in some traditions, the other extreme when even Satan is forgiven at the End. If anyone ehre can prove it one way or another, I know about 15,000 Christian denominations that would love to know.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by A Simple Poet

Balderdash. You have to repent and believe. Whoever is telling you that is wrong.

Poet (can I call you just Poet?), I'm not talking about how to get into heaven or how to get to Hell.
I'm talking about what some people (specifically the religion of my school) believe.
Baptists believe they're completely right; and according to their beliefs, Hitler has done enough to guarantee him a place in Heaven.
I don't even believe in an Afterlife, so I'm not defending their beliefs. Au contraire; the way they treat me differently at my school just because I don't believe in a Messiah has made me untolerable unto this religion.
You think they're wrong, and so do I; I'm just pointing out their folly.

[A Simple Poet]

Yes we agree on some points even if I believe that Christ is the Messiah and you don't. I am critical of their methodology and as a Baptist, I do not agree with their presentation of the faith (which if I am understanding your words as they teach it to you, is wrong in my opinion). If they believe Hitler has done enough to get into heaven, I don't think so. In my book, he has to believe in Christ's divinity and repent. That's it, and I don't think he did either. And they should not treat you adversely, but with acceptance and love. No wonder Christianity gets a bad rap.

And Poet, ASP, or Will is all the same to me....

[Blushing Heliophobe]

Just because the vast majority of Christians believe in one-time Holy-Holy Super Salvation by Jesus Christ Himself On Sale In The Blue Aisle Special doesn't mean that all Christians believe in it.

It's an intense theological issue to this day.

I consider myself more or less Christian - as in, I believe in a Christian God, I believe in Christ, and I value the Bible - but I do not believe that you must dedicate yourself to Christ alone and follow all the 'rules' that organized religion will hand you in order to get to heaven.

Keep in mind that although many sectors of Christianity suscribe to the idea of getting to heaven by a one time salvation by Christ, it is not outlined as absolutely so in the New Testament. Many believe it to be so and can give a decent case based on scripture why they think so, but, as I said, nowhere is it written beyond a shadow of a doubt to be so.

[A Simple Poet]

I would be interested in knowing your thoughts on how Heaven is achieved, BH.

I do not believe that one must follow a bunch of rules either. That is a fallacy of Organized Christianity. But what about Disorganized Religion. In the New Testament Jesus gave two commandments: 1. Love God with all your Heart. 2. Love your neighbor as yourself. (Admittedly, #2 is hard). The fact that Jesus only gave two commandments seems to make me think that all the other things are like guidelines anyway (to borrow the Pirates of the Carribean cliche).

[Cambodian Breakfast]

I don't know. I knid of think that the little voice in the back of your head has a lot to do with things. Have you ever done somthing fucked up. Right before you did it did you hear a little voice saying Stop motherfucker what are you about to do? It all goes if you listen to it or not.

[spookypurple]

That may well have been that enigmatic third member of the trinity.

[Blushing Heliophobe]

Originally Posted by A Simple Poet

I would be interested in knowing your thoughts on how Heaven is achieved, BH.

As cheesy as it may sound, have you ever read the last book of the Narnia series? In it, the Narnia world comes to an end, and the animals enter a large gate. Inside the gate is Aslan. As each animal goes by, s/he looks up into Aslan's face and either recognizes his intense love, or they see it and hate him. Depending on their reaction is where they are sorted. In fact, a follower of the god Tash is in Narnia Heaven, and when the children ask why he was allowed in, Aslan said that even though the Tash follower never followed Aslan he recognized him when he saw him.

It makes sense to me.

If accepting the intense gift of love and forgiveness is what gets us into Heaven, then why would a god that loves us enough to die for us and is smart enough to create the entire universe leave it up to Fundamentalist wackos to convince us before we die?

Kind of puts us behind the power curve.

And the kind of people who are usually so concerned about the well-being of your soul hardly embody the compassionate, self sacrificing Christ model that the gospels paint for us.

If living a perfect life is what gets us into heaven, then why would Christ die as a sacrifice for sin?

I think we're missing the forest for the trees here.

That's just my take on the situation.

[Jane13]

I have a hard time beleiving that Hitler was Christian because a) he gave a lot of Christian denominations (particularly Catholicism) a hell of a time, b) I've heard a lot of accounts of him being obsessed with the occult, and c) he was a staunch Darwinist (which sort of argues against him being a Baptist). Anyway...

on the subject of the afterlife, I've always thought of Matthew:

The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

... sorry I keep making really long posts ^^;

So... even if it may verge on heresy, I beleive that perhaps there is more than one way to serve Jesus. Though I am Catholic, and strongly beleive that I must follow the Church's traditions... life is precious and unique. I'm not everyone.

[Kij.]

Let's just say I had a bad experience telling my mom and brother I don't believe in God...

[Godslayer Jillian]

Dude... three years!

[Needlefeet]

Getting fucking annoying now.

[Duane]

Okay, no more posting in here, just let it die.