Hey Saya, want to reach Nirvana?

[HumanePain]

But reincarnation can be proved scientifically!

We are the reincarnation of our parents. It is proven we inherit our parents DNA. Even their looks and singing voice! But more than that:

We drift in and out of the stream of consciousness between lives and loves. When you think about it there is never a time when we realize we are not conscious, that we don't exist. We don't remember before birth, and we won't know the afterlife oblivion, only the conscious now is perceived.

Reincarnation is real. Now is forever and always has been, since the first amoeba.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

But reincarnation can be proved scientifically!

We are the reincarnation of our parents. It is proven we inherit our parents DNA. Even their looks and singing voice! But more than that:

We drift in and out of the stream of consciousness between lives and loves. When you think about it there is never a time when we realize we are not conscious, that we don't exist. We don't remember before birth, and we won't know the afterlife oblivion, only the conscious now is perceived.

Reincarnation is real. Now is forever and always has been, since the first amoeba.

That's not really the kind of reincarnation that we're talking about.

[Catch]

Wow, do Desp and KK actually DO anything?

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Catch

Wow, do Desp and KK actually DO anything?

Keep harassing them Catch! It reminds them that if they can dish it out they can take it.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Really?

Props then, both for the classy response to this fairly dickish thread, and also for surprising me.

Out of curiosity, is that a personal thing or is that the specific kind of Buddhism you're currently practicing?

I think I got what you were thinking when you posted it, so no worries. Thanks for being concerned though.

Its somewhat personal but there's plenty of Buddhists who don't believe in reincarnation or the spiritual version, I think Thich Nhat Hahn's teachings about death (which was kinda like HP's in that "your matter is never destroyed, so you'll always be around in some form.") was a big boost to the Buddhists who don't believe in the supernatural aspects. I think its more popular in Zen, which even traditionally often ignored reincarnation anyway (Ikkyu often criticized other Zen Buddhists for this). I don't think it would fly very well in other sects, but I don't know for sure, and it seems fairly common among Western Buddhists particularly.

Buddhism denies the existence of a soul or permanent self, so I never really understood what gets reincarnated. I see it as a relic of the religion's Hindu roots (who believe in Moksha, which is a lot like nirvana). I use the word "nirvana" to describe my goal but I really don't mean to extinguish karma and reincarnation, Zen often says "Satori" and "Daigo" instead.

[Murder.Of.Crows]

I always thought reincarnation was ridiculous. Maybe i have the wrong grasp of it, but if you die and are reborn without memory of past self or even the apperance of your past self, then what exactly is being reincarnated? The soul? So... we are just being recycled over and over again, because some douche bag creator was too lazy too make some kind of better afterlife setup, or new souls to begin with?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Murder.Of.Crows

I always thought reincarnation was ridiculous. Maybe i have the wrong grasp of it, but if you die and are reborn without memory of past self or even the apperance of your past self, then what exactly is being reincarnated? The soul? So... we are just being recycled over and over again, because some douche bag creator was too lazy too make some kind of better afterlife setup, or new souls to begin with?

In the Buddhist tradition, there is no soul. Often people will say "Well, your consciousness is reincarnated" and your karma follows, but that doesn't seem fair that you have to be punished in this life for something some jerkwad who shared your consciousness in a past life did. But you do sort of keep your appearance in your past self, one of the characteristics of karma is that it determines your body in your next life, if you're a hungry ghost or an Untouchable, there's a reason for it. This was the religious justification for the caste system, if you were born an Untouchable, you must have done something horrible in a past life. If you are born a woman, you did have as much positive karma as someone born a man in your same caste.

In Buddhism, there is no creator. The Hindus and Jainists believe karma was the reason we reincarnate over and over, to achieve moksha is to break the binds of karma. Buddha taught that it was suffering that binds us to samsara, and thus we reincarnate, which is why I don't think reincarnation and karma (to a degree) isn't necessary to practice Buddhism (depending on your sect, I don't see how Pure Land Buddhism could work without it as an example).

[Murder.Of.Crows]

Ahh, thanks for the clarification. Stills seems rather fucked up though. Why, if I may ask, did you choose Buddhism though?

[Saya]

I converted ten years ago when I was a teenager, so my memory isn't so great, but if I recall it was because a lot of the teaching resonated strongly with me. My parents were also having a bitter divorce, I was at a new school, I didn't believe in God anymore, zazen meditation was a good tool to be able to face my difficulties and clear my mind enough to think objectively and with clarity.

I'm still a novice and not a wise person, but a lot happened since then, but I still love the clarity meditation brings, I imagine enlightenment is being able to maintain that clarity all the time. I have an anxiety disorder that makes it hard to see things as they are, I can know rationally that things aren't so bad but I feel like something terrible is happening all the same. Sometimes zazen makes me cry as a result, out of relief, like I'm finally waking from a terrible nightmare.

It also brings bad things, its human nature I guess to want to believe we have more control over a situation than what we really have, to not want to let go, to cling, and its hard to overcome that. Reality isn't always pleasant, and zazen forces you to face it. So I don't like the idea of "Oh it brings me inner peace!" because its brought a lot of pain too, but its a necessary pain, I think, to shape me and make me become the person I want to be, to be comfortable with the person I am, regardless if I find what I'm looking for or not.

Hope that makes sense, its far past my bedtime and I'm drowsy, not feeling any clarity at all XD

[Murder.Of.Crows]

Meditation leading to weeping joyfully, sounds pretty cool. However, the religion that follows isn't my cup of tea. Although, that is why i started smoking, it was my time set aside to slow the world down and look at in perspective, it is not as healthy or achieving as how your meditation sounds, but it has the same principles. So, i understand, somewhat anyways.

[Saya]

Well, I don't weep often, just when I'm having a bad time anyway XD just to try and describe what that clarity can mean to me, most of the time its just a struggle. To do it, all you need to do is focus on your breath, I do it by counting it to ten ( in breath, one, out breath, one, in breath, two, etc) then starting over. Don't follow what thoughts arise. If you lose track, start over. Its amazing how fast your mind starts to wander.

For the record, I can't stand visualization meditations >.> I don't want to pretend I'm a tree, thank you.

[vindicatedxjin]

I would be horrible at doing that.

My mind would be going crazy... thinking about hitler and fish sticks.

[Murder.Of.Crows]

How do you pair the two? Shit, now all i can think of is hitler fish.

[vindicatedxjin]

fish STICKS.

[Mr E Nigma]

Saya you're doin' it wrong. You're not supposed to pretend you're a tree. You're supposed to meditate and pretend you're a zombie killing machine...

...oh wait.

[Still Jack]

I'mma be re-incarnated. I'mma have me cloned and raised on PCP and Crack-Cocaine by a Columbian War-lord.

[Pineapple_Juice]

I wanna die and come back as a leotard.*

[Despanan]

I'm still a novice and not a wise person, but a lot happened since then, but I still love the clarity meditation brings, I imagine enlightenment is being able to maintain that clarity all the time. I have an anxiety disorder that makes it hard to see things as they are, I can know rationally that things aren't so bad but I feel like something terrible is happening all the same. Sometimes zazen makes me cry as a result, out of relief, like I'm finally waking from a terrible nightmare.

Glad to get some insight.

Just wondering, have you tried medication?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Glad to get some insight.

Just wondering, have you tried medication?

Not yet. In retrospect I really did make it sound worse than it is now, it used to be pretty horrible but in the last two years or so I've gotten a lot better. When I was a teen I used to never speak, I originally dropped out of university because I'd used to have crying fits on campus all the time. Right now I'm doing fairly well socially and I rarely have panic attacks anymore, but I'm starting to suspect that this is probably as good as it can get on my own. I was offered a prescription when I was a teen but the doctor I was seeing at the time has since moved, and I don't know how to bring it up with a brand new doctor. I know its irrational but I'm kinda scared that the new doctor will just think I'm making it up.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

Not yet. In retrospect I really did make it sound worse than it is now, it used to be pretty horrible but in the last two years or so I've gotten a lot better. When I was a teen I used to never speak, I originally dropped out of university because I'd used to have crying fits on campus all the time. Right now I'm doing fairly well socially and I rarely have panic attacks anymore, but I'm starting to suspect that this is probably as good as it can get on my own. I was offered a prescription when I was a teen but the doctor I was seeing at the time has since moved, and I don't know how to bring it up with a brand new doctor. I know its irrational but I'm kinda scared that the new doctor will just think I'm making it up.

For the love of God get some medicine in you.

Doctors don't worry if you're making something up unless you're trying to get your hands on highly addictive drugs like Oxycodon or something. You may be getting better lately and the meditation and the like may be helping, but seriously, you have free healthcare, you have no excuse.

Sorry, don't want to come across as harsh, but this is a pet-peeve of mine. There are so many people I care about who have/had minor to serious mental issues that they refused to treat properly.

I have been bugging my then current, now ex-girlfriend to medicate her depression since we were eighteen. Every time she refused. Cut to nine years later, after sinking into an insane depression, getting dumped, gaining weight, and having the leave the city due to being unable to hold a job she returns from the West Coast looking great and feeling great.

"What Happened?" says I.

"I'm on Welbutrin*" says she.

*Facepalm* says I.

But seriously Saya, you have no excuse. There are so many people who for some insane reason try to treat mental issues with tea and positive thinking. It's like trying to get rid of bedbugs by vaccuming and hoping they'll decide to go elsewhere, you need to call an exterminator.






*The exact medicine I've been telling her to take since we were eighteen.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

For the love of God get some medicine in you.

Doctors don't worry if you're making something up unless you're trying to get your hands on highly addictive drugs like Oxycodon or something. You may be getting better lately and the meditation and the like may be helping, but seriously, you have free healthcare, you have no excuse.

Prescription medication isn't covered by our healthcare, I just don't get charged for the doctor visit, and my insurance won't cover it. Mental health is by no means a priority here.

Sorry, don't want to come across as harsh, but this is a pet-peeve of mine. There are so many people I care about who have/had minor to serious mental issues that they refused to treat properly.

I have been bugging my then current, now ex-girlfriend to medicate her depression since we were eighteen. Every time she refused. Cut to nine years later, after sinking into an insane depression, getting dumped, gaining weight, and having the leave the city due to being unable to hold a job she returns from the West Coast looking great and feeling great.

"What Happened?" says I.

"I'm on Welbutrin*" says she.

*Facepalm* says I.

But seriously Saya, you have no excuse. There are so many people who for some insane reason try to treat mental issues with tea and positive thinking. It's like trying to get rid of bedbugs by vaccuming and hoping they'll decide to go elsewhere, you need to call an exterminator.






*The exact medicine I've been telling her to take since we were eighteen.

I get that, and I appreciate the concern, but I honestly and truly feel that I am doing much better than I was, seriously, and I don't know if its serious enough now to warrant medication. And I really don't depend on meditation or "positive thinking", a big part of why I'm doing so well now is that I'm learning how to socialize better and I have a supportive network of friends and family, and I'm not hanging out with people who made me feel like shit. I used to never talk and never leave the house, but while I'll never be the life of the party I'm doing public speaking and meeting new people everyday, being productive and social and feeling great about it, and being able to talk about it when its not great, I still have bad days but never to that point ever again.

Also, I'm still debating whether I'd want this in the long term, money is a big issue, I'd hate to depend on it and then not be able to afford a refill in time (I have friends with this issue, its not a pretty sight) and there's also going to be an issue with how it'll affect other prescriptions. I have close friends who are on meds and once they found the med that worked for them it was good, but you have to allow experimentation to find the right one, and I don't want to fuck around with my mental state while I'm in school.

And I promise I'm not doing anything but meditation, while we don't get free meds we do have a counselling center at my school that's free to go to, I talk to someone there off and on. I haven't had the talks about meds with her yet but if I find myself slipping I'm certainly going to bring it up.

I won't say I'm not ever going on medication, I'm just still not sure, and I just have my reservations right now. I promise I'm not being a huge idiot about it and taking snake oil and reading The Secret to solve my problems. I should have seen someone when it was really bad, certainly I regret that and I do feel like I wasted the years I was out of school, no argument there.

[Despanan]

Weeping as a result of meditation is not normal Saya.

So Canadian Healthcare doesn't cover mental health stuff?

Man that sucks. Still I think you should look into it. Most mental health medicine isn't something you're supposed to take and depend on for the rest of your life. It's designed to actually get your brain to start producing the proper levels of hormones on it's own. That's what happened to me when I was on Welbutrin. I took it for about six months and then was able to stop with no ill effects on my mood - I just stopped getting angry for no reason.

Anyway, it can't hurt to bring it up to your doctor, he may be able to find you something affordable, or at least let you know that you don't actually need the medicine conclusively.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Weeping as a result of meditation is not normal Saya.

But it isn't a regular occurance for me either.

So Canadian Healthcare doesn't cover mental health stuff?

Man that sucks. Still I think you should look into it. Most mental health medicine isn't something you're supposed to take and depend on for the rest of your life. It's designed to actually get your brain to start producing the proper levels of hormones on it's own. That's what happened to me when I was on Welbutrin. I took it for about six months and then was able to stop with no ill effects on my mood - I just stopped getting angry for no reason.

Anyway, it can't hurt to bring it up to your doctor, he may be able to find you something affordable, or at least let you know that you don't actually need the medicine conclusively.

If you're a really bad case, like schizophrenic or suicidal, and need to be hospitalized, you can get a referral to a psychiatrist, but otherwise no.

I know its not something you're supposed to take forever but I don't know anyone who successfully went off anti-anxiety meds, including my mom and roommate. My roommate stopped upping the dosage years ago (she's been on it since we were like, 15?) so it just keeps her from getting really bad, but she can't get off it either.

Anyway, this is getting too navel gazing for me and I don't really like digging up bad memories, and I probably said far more than I should have, just don't take it like I'm not listening to you at all, I am! But I also feel good about where I am now, especially compared to where I was, and I'm cautious about approaching anxiety medication like its a trouble free panacea.

[Mir]

I'm just really disappointed. I walked into this thread thinking it was about Depanan's mammoth penis.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Mir

I'm just really disappointed. I walked into this thread thinking it was about Depanan's mammoth penis.

I'll say it here and now, there are many paths to God, and that one is probably the best.