Iranian Children's Cartoon Promotes Suicide Bombing

[Anubissokar]

its very uh... Ungothy of me to dislike Muslims but things like that justify my beliefs.

[Binkie]

Well, in the grand scheme of things, it's no surprise that cartoons like this come from a nation that used 12 year olds as human mine sweepers in the 80s.

[MrMaelstrom]

I guess I should have condoned the cartoon attempting to debate the terrotorial issue. Maybe then no one would try to pin the jew-hater badge on me (again).

And Al, in your "example", if PREJUDICE was untrue, it wouldn't be happening on both sides, as your buddy Helena promptly showed all of us.

But thank you for bringing up again the fact that muslims in general dislike palestinians and use them as an excuse to attack Israel. I mean, it's not like it's something I ever mentioned.

And it really counters all notions and arguements that palestinians are trampled on as we would a roach... yeah, right.

[MrMaelstrom]

Originally Posted by Binkie

What is the issue is whether or not you're just ranting or actually trying to justify the use of children as suicide bombers.

Neither. I do not justify. I comprehend.
Just because I understand how someone is brought to a crossroad doesn't mean I accept and consider proper the path chosen by that someone (as I mentioned here before on countless occasions regarding muslim extremism, ETA and the IRA).

[Binkie]

Justify (verb):

1. Show to be reasonable or provide adequate ground for
2. Show to be right by providing justification or proof
3. Defend, explain, clear away, or make excuses for by reasoning

Point brought up before was that it's inexcusable to exploit children in such a way durring a conflict. Enter Mael to do what? What I saw in response amounted to the third definition.

As much as you want to bring up the conditions of Palestinians and Israeli occupation, it does not excuse what many militant groups have done by seducing children into destroying themselves. The parents of these very children, who's remains had to be mopped up, agree.

Therefore you either brought that up in part of a rant, or as to justify the practice of manipulating children into doing such horrible acts by talking about the worth of land or living conditions. Just because you wouldn't do it yourself doesn't mean you can't sit back and defend/justify the practice of through reasoning. Sometimes people get so carried away with being on the otherside of a debate that they lose track of what they're fighting for in an arguement.

I guess that being born in a refugee camp and watching your children live and die in a refugee camp makes for some changes in the mindset of what people are willing to do to counter their opression (unless of course, palestinians really aren't being repressed). I guess that many would rather see their children dead than trampled on. Many prefer the idea of their children dying to being killed by mindless twats following orders ('cause that's what it comes down to when trying to prosecute military personel, as the case of the schoolgirl evidently showed: the prosecution witnesses were soldiers themselves [bless the ones with a heart inside their chests] and yet...)

What I mean is, we seem to hold here the whole of the palestinian population hostage to the actions of a few, but we can't seem to be able to condone Israel for the actions of a nation while represented by its armed forces.

It's either justification by pointing at Israel, or it's an off-topic rant.

It already is different for me with some and no actual need for it.
As for those with none and a real need for it...

This is where you just stop short of actually coming out and saying what you have to say. This is why I'm wanting clarification here, Mael. How is it different in relation to my point? It's ok for someone with a real need to seduce a child into wearing a bomb belt and destroying themselves? Is that what you were going to say? Otherwise this has nothing to do with the topic of child suicide bombers if it's different in other respects. Therefor it falls into the category of "off-topic rant."

[MrMaelstrom]

Originally Posted by Binkie

It's ok for someone with a real need to seduce a child into wearing a bomb belt and destroying themselves? Is that what you were going to say?

No.

But it means that even though I condemn and do not accept a suicide bomber even when he is old enough to make his own decisions, I find the circunstances that drove him to homicidal insanity perfectly understandable.

As for putting children there, it's obscene.

I hope that clears that up.



.

[Binkie]

Yes, Mael, but is seducing children into suicide bombings "understandable?"

[AlKilyu]

Binkie we must understand their struggle.

Why there was a group many years ago who were forced by their goverment to allow people who previously were their enemy, and they tried like hell to seperate themselves from the other group. These poor souls saw no other alternative but to attack in the night, killing innocent women and children who weren't so innocent because of the inhumane circumstances that were forced upon them. Sure their methods were cowardly, but can't we as good hearted souls see the horrors that brought them to their dastardly ways? Could not a few supposedly "innocent" lives be spared so that these people could live the life they wanted to live? Of course.

































Oh wait nevermind, both sides are American, they are evil anyway...

[AlKilyu]

My point was that to condone and pity the terrorist and cowardly actions actions of a FEW of any group because of their disposition is asinine. PLO KKK and IRA, who last I checked didn't have their entire country's populace on their membership roster. NONE of them.

[MrMaelstrom]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Binkie we must understand their struggle.

Could not a few supposedly "innocent" lives be spared so that these people could live the life they wanted to live? Of course.

Oh, I see. "Their struggle" means DOESN'T mean ALL palestinians, huh?
And then the picture of the KKK.
Then Innocent people between quotation marks isn't implying there are no innocent palestinians, huh?

So, Alkilyu is NOT bunching the palestinian people into an extremist fanatic bag, huh?

Then what the fuck is this thread really about? Trying to find someone who completely empathizes with the cartoon? Gimme a break and a milkshake.

FUCK this...

[MrMaelstrom]

And Binkie, I believe your question is perfectly answered in the post just prior to yours, so don't try to put words in my mouth.

[Binkie]

I'm not, because you really didn't answer it directly. You said it's understandable for an adult to make that decision, but as for children, all you said was it's "obscene." It's obscene for an adult to make the decision to strap a bomb loaded with ball bearings to his chest and blow himself up in a crowd of women and children (who are completely innocent of the situation). It's still "understandable" though, is it not? Or is this a grey area?

But if you're opinion is that it's not "understandable," as you're suggesting (or I'm interpreting), then we've had nothing to argue for the last 6 posts. That was my original point, and through all of your defensive rhetoric and choice to bring up the worth of land as though to suggest it's a factor in it being ok for children to be used as suicide bombers, it hasn't apparently challenged that point.

Essentially, this has been an arguement about nothing between you and I. We agreed all along on what I was focusing on.

[JuliaGaltic]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

But it means that even though I condemn and do not accept a suicide bomber even when he is old enough to make his own decisions, I find the circunstances that drove him to homicidal insanity perfectly understandable.

As for putting children there, it's obscene.

I hope that clears that up.

I don't agree with the idea of suicide bombings as retribution simply because a lot of the time the bomber ends up taking innocent lives. That being said, I'm with Maelstrom on this one. If someone murdered my mother, brother, father, etc... I can honestly say that killing that person would cross my mind. I have never been put in that situation so I can't say for sure what I would actually do, but I would seriously consider taking his/her life and I can imagine wanting to take my own at the same time if I were in that amount of pain.

[MrMaelstrom]

I believe considering the very notion obscene does indeed qualify it way beyond understandable. But to make it clearer: It's not understandable.

And is that what this thread is really all about? Like I mentioned in my previous post, I don't think so.

[MrMaelstrom]

If you're a newbie and are reading this: Welcome to Gothic.net, where friendships are forged and no punches are pulled regardless (ok, we pull back a little sometimes, like on this thread).

[ghostposts]

Oh, I see. "Their struggle" means DOESN'T mean ALL palestinians, huh?
And then the picture of the KKK.

I got the exact opposite. A picture of the KKK means "Terrorists", not the entire of the southern U. S.

Just as mention of "a group " doesn't include the entire Palestinian people. He said, quite clearly,

...and cowardly actions actions of a FEW of any group

then followed it up with the pic and the comment.

No, I don't believe you hate jews or the U.S. citizens, nor do I think you condone the manipulation and murder of children or the victims they were coerced into killing.

As far as the cartoons I think they are appalling. I remember the story a friend of mine told me about a seven year old child who approached him and his friend in Viet Nam. They offered the child candy. He took it, with a smile, then pulled a gun out of his pocket and shot my friend's buddy in the heart. The poor child then turned the gun on my friend.

My friend, just out of the bush, acted instinctively and shot the child. He blamed himself for the rest of his life. He told me that if he had slower reflexes he would have let that kid kill him, and often wished he had.

People get so screwed up by hatred they let it kill their kids. They've been doing it for decades. That's what I think this thread is about, and it's a sad topic but it needs to be discussed.

[MrMaelstrom]

I think this relates somewhat. I just watched someone play something called Grand Theft Auto - St. Andreas something or other.

I couldn't believe the premisse of the game. You go around killing other hoods and cops and bystanders....

Of course, the thing wasn't for kids, but designed for.... ...words fail me.

[ghostposts]

Well, I have a tentency to watch what my kids play or watch on T.V., at least until they are old enough to distinguish between reality and fantasy.

It's like my son. When he was a baby, he couldn't watch Lassie, because the collie dog attacked a human. He'd cry and hide his face. Then one night I fell asleep while his dad was watching him. I woke up a few hours later, and the kid was giggleing, watching Evil Dead.

He knew the zombies weren't real. Dogs were.

I still made them turn it off, after all- he was only three, andt he gore was excessive, but I never forgot that.

Then you think of all the brain washing they did on children's programs and cartoons here in the U.S. Captain Planet, for a while, was big for the kids. Then, in thier last season, they got a bit violent and explicit in depicting some of the things experimenters do to animals.

Our local t.v. station followed it up by showing a very explicit commercial against experimentation, right in the middle of kids programming, later that day. I'd turned it off Captain Planet, and he was watching something from disney. The commercial showed vivisection. I ran for the TV, but my son saw a bit before I switched it off. He had nightmares for days.

People don't think! They just "Educate", and preach to our kids, and if we don't at least watch the shows with them, we can't even do damage control.

[UltraNEO*]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

I think this relates somewhat. I just watched someone play something called Grand Theft Auto - St. Andreas something or other.

I couldn't believe the premisse of the game. You go around killing other hoods and cops and bystanders....

Of course, the thing wasn't for kids, but designed for.... ...words fail me.

But at least there's a "18 Cert" and noticeable warnings on the packaging warning you of it's contents. And hopefully responsible adults who will discourage their kids, educated them, or at least watch over them and protect them accessing this sort of material. Though I like to think, for most people esp. educated kids; they can differential (right word?) between what's fiction and what's reality; then again there are those who blatantly don't care!

As for those so called 'cartoons' broadcasts over the internet and accessible to anyone who can click a mouse... or worst broadcasted on their teleb, direct to their homes? Well that's just wrong.

Cartoons are supposed to be educational not corrupting young minds into doing that other's think is justified.

[Binkie]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

I believe considering the very notion obscene does indeed qualify it way beyond understandable. But to make it clearer: It's not understandable.

And is that what this thread is really all about? Like I mentioned in my previous post, I don't think so.

You have a secretive language to your posts that doesn't really let it's audience into the real intent behind it. As I said before, why were you so quick to be defensive to my point when all it was was something you agreed with? Unless you just used it as an excuse to rant on the subject?

And yes, this topic is about Iranian state media, which has not only encouraged Palestinian terrorism in the form of child suicide bombers, but has, in the past, used it's own children for the purposes of suicidal mine clearing during the Iran-Iraq war.

[UltraNEO*]

Originally Posted by Binkie

....What is the issue is whether or not you're just ranting or actually trying to justify the use of children as suicide bombers.

I don't understand how Anyone can really justify the use of children as suicide bombers. Maybe it's as my friend, the historian says... "You tell them to do something and they do it in different way. And they are impossible to reason. They can't think rationally and everything is tribal. Arabs, lack of critical thinking." then again we "shouldn't sponsor our enemy". Should we?

[Circle V]

Originally Posted by Maelstrom (On using children as suicide bombers)

It's not understandable.

Originally Posted by Binkie (Regarding whether reclaiming land is worth sacrificing children)

All those childrens' lives, who will never grow up to even own a house or land and know what it means to even fight for this cause, sure as shit ain't worth the little piece of shit I owned before someone took it away.

As far as I can tell, both of you agree completely on the main question: is it understandable for children to be sacrificed (as suicide bombers)?

You both said "no."

Originally Posted by Maelstrom

But it means that even though I condemn and do not accept a suicide bomber even when he is old enough to make his own decisions, I find the circunstances that drove him to homicidal insanity perfectly understandable.

Is there anything wrong with this? Maelstrom hasn't advocated suicide bombing in any way, he has merely stated that he understands how people could be driven to it. A psychologist might understand why a serial killer murders people-- that doesn't mean that he supports their decision.

Originally Posted by Binkie

Essentially, this has been an arguement about nothing between you and I. We agreed all along on what I was focusing on.

Yes. Why, then, did you go on to accuse Maelstrom of having...

Originally Posted by Binkie

...a secretive language to your posts that doesn't really let it's audience into the real intent behind it.

You both agree. You both realize that fact. Why are you still arguing about minute details?

[Binkie]

Originally Posted by UltraNEO*

I don't understand how Anyone can really justify the use of children as suicide bombers.

It comes down to exploitation of innocence through a devout religion that has repeatedly been used to manipulate people all over the world. Not picking on Islam, but warped individuals have used it as a tool for a variety of things, including seduction of chidlren into suicidal acts as well as convincing people that slavery is their family's destiny.

It's both extreme and unresonable. But those same warped individuals will attempt to justify it nontheless.

[Binkie]

Originally Posted by Circle V

Is there anything wrong with this? Maelstrom hasn't advocated suicide bombing in any way, he has merely stated that he understands how people could be driven to it. A psychologist might understand why a serial killer murders people-- that doesn't mean that he supports their decision.

That same psychologist would not claim that murdering 26 random people, including women and children, is completely understandable in the nature of defense. Not with the reasoning Mael has provided. Why? Because in that statement lies justification and reasoning to an act of which there is none. It's both extreme and excessive; traits which do not characterise a reasonable action marked by sound judgement.

Yes. Why, then, did you go on to accuse Maelstrom of having...
...You both agree. You both realize that fact. Why are you still arguing about minute details?

I wasn't arguing about anything else. I made my statement that Mael agreed with, yet he chose to argue. About what? Nothing else logically fit the bill, thusly I needed him to state it in plain english that he was not justifying the use of children as suicide bombers. But really, what else is there to argue with than my one point; that seducing children into suicidal bombings is unreasonable and unjustifiable? I wasn't arguing anything else. He just hijacked the thread for a few moments so he could carry on a rant about Israel in whatever way he could relate to the topic. This is an on-going trend with Mael, by which he has gone out of his way to bring up the Iraq war in 23 threads in the Politics section. Related or unrelated, Mael will criticise whatever he feels like wherever he feels like it.

[MrMaelstrom]

Sorry Binks, but in my opinion, Alkilyu started this thread in order to further try to bunch up all of the palestinians into a hatemongering group.

Mind you, if it were really about Iran's politics, like the new president recently saying Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth and other such nonsense, I'd still have plenty to rant on how US foreign policy practically coerced the one of the most progressive muslim nations (under Khatami's rule) back into a corner and justifying the nation's subsequent vote on an extremist idiot.
Guess we're all set for war now that we got the puppet we want in power to give us al the excuses we need for yet another liberating event. Or will Syria go first?

Tunisia, Algeria, Lybia, Egypt and even Morrocco can be as extreme as Iran as a whole, but then come to play terms like "strategic partner" (like Saddam used to be) and nothing worth exploiting in those other countries.

But, like I said, it wasn't about Iran at all. It was nothing but another attempt to paint Israelis as saints and palestinians as sinners. And when I try and balance the typical arguement of this sort, I am accused of doing the reverse and not "accused" of trying to set the record straight by showing the extremism on the Israeli side.