Do you know where you are? (Where am I going?)

[DepthsofSpace]

So, I posting this for advice, not to whine.

This morning I spent having coffee on the porch with my parents, not an unusual things to do in my household. My father will be away on business for the remainder of the week, and I've got job interviews this afternoon. However, they had sent my siblings away and wanted to talk to me one-on-one. I like that, most of the time, but they opened up a lot of questions that I had had on my mind for a while now and then some subjects that I thought were pointless, though they sorta had relevance (chiefly among these questions was my music and attire. Everyone been here before, right?).

So, my mother and I had this same sort of discussion before, but now it was both of them asking: what is up with the way I live and my personal philosophies, and then their opinions on how they could/would negatively affect my future careers, personal and social life. First up was my "anti-establishment outlook", as my father put it, my seemingly rejection of society (wrong), government and 'organized religion'. I sugar coated my answer here back to where my 'market anarchist' views just seem like a die-hard old conservative, rather than a more classical liberal sick of social conservativism and military hegemony. On religion, I tried to assure them that I'm still 'Christian' leaning, I've just gotten tired of the rat-race religion and I don't believe most of the Bible as perfect, inspired words of God. That didn't thrill them, and they believe that I will only be a happy person if I'm 'living in the Word'. Mother also felt that my music creates a 'false religion' and idolatry. Look, I like goth music, I like dressing a certain way, because it feels comfortable. I don't worship it, though maybe it is a bit too much my personality. I read and think far more on political theories and philosophies, if anything that would be my 'religion'.

The conversation actually started with my father trying to get the word 'goth' out of my mouth, in regards to my attire and music choices (the first question to me was "So, mother and I are wondering, what is up with the black clothes and such. What do you call your anti-establishment lifestyle?"). The best description he got of my music was "it's mostly darkwave, a branch off of post-Punk and New Wave music of the eighties" (my quote to him). They feel that this "lifestyle" as they called it, will sabotage my future as a person. Now I dyed my hair back around the middle of April. I'm naturally a dark brown and I went to the lightest black I could. To me it looked very natural, and except I didn't keep it up and then let it grow out a bit and chopped it off when it began to fade. If you look at my hair in the sun, the tips have just a faint reddish colouration to them. If you've seen pictures of me, I dress very conservative for a 'goth', mostly dress shirts and slacks, I just like black. I am extremely pale, and per the stereotype I don't do out in the sun all that often, though it seems they was me to start sunbathing (literally).

I clean up nice. I sit typing this in a blue, white and gold striped dress shirt and tan 'Dockers', hair brushed back as I'm going to a few interviews as I said. I would dress like this anyways, even if they had never said a thing.I know when to conform and when to be myself.

However, they told me that anytime I act out of norms, I endangering my future and that 'playing dress-up' is for kids and teens, not serious adults wanting to move up in the world. I was also told, on that note, that I need to leave the elements of my youth behind (though I'm not sure what they mean) as fond memories and, more or less, start doing 'adult things'. The company I keep was questioned (and basically names of friends were thrown out there and questioned to see if I hung-out with a bunch of 'goths' or anti-authoritarians (what my friends wore, listened too, thought about poliics, etc)

All that aside, discussions of my future came up. I want to get out, move on, be successful. I just don't know what I want to do anymore. I want an MBA still (for the security), but what career paths should I take? It was mentioned once to me, I should do something creative, because I have a very active imagination. But I really don't know what I would do. I use to want to be an astrophysicist and astronomer, until I realized I suck at and hate math with a passion (at least math without dollar/pound/franc/euro/yen signs). I thought I wanted to go into investing, but I really don't know why, but the fact that they make next to nothing and maybe prodding from the parents pushed me away from that. Aviation was considered, in the business end, but has moved away since I quit my airport job. So I don't know what I want to do! And I want to do something and I want to finish my BA (and then go to rad school). I feel stuck and I don't know where to go.

The conversation went to the ground with a debate between my father and I on the implications of a tactical nuclear stroke on Iran by Israel or the US (my view being that would kick off the beginnings of a war not seen in the history of the world (except maybe WWII); his being that all the countries would shut up and start doing what the US/Israel tells them too). It was all in good, positive discussion, but ended the 'serious' talk about me. I didn't get to say anything I really wanted to about who I am, what I like and the company I keep.

So, questions and advice on this please:

Are they right? Is having my hair dyed and very pale skin, either currently or with the remnants showing, turning me off to any chance of getting a job, or functioning in society? Do I need a tan and no hint I might have ever done anything 'radical' with my hair in order to get a job? Same thing with going out of the house in my more 'gothy' attire and perchance being seen (oh my gosh! The horror!) by someone who knows me already, or might have considered me for a project or job? It seems so stupid, but...

The other, how the heck do I figure out what to do? My father is pushing for the military very strongly, and the only reason I'm considering it (even though I might as well put my anti-authoritarian beliefs aside and betray those I would call 'comrades' or allies now) is that if WWIII kicks off, I can safely be working in the Air Force, rather than being drafted and shoved onto the front lines with an M4 carbine and ordered to kill people, and end up dead by an AK-47 round. It would, thinking logically, kick start me into real life and help pay for college, rather than being in debt to the banks (which I hate almost as much as I do the government).

Opinions on anything I said?

X-posted from my Live Journal.

[raggedyanne]

Oy! Dressing in the color black has never kept someone from obtaining a good job. In fact, black dress pants and a nice dress shirt are the best thing to wear to a job interview because it makes you look professional.
I hate to insult your parents, but they have got some major issues. They have absolutely no right to tell you what you should believe, and the fact that they're trying to do so, along with your descriptions of their behavior, makes me very sceptical that they'll ever accept anything that isn't sanctioned my the mass media.

You seem like a level headed, intelligent person. Keep it up. You said you "know when to conform"; don't. You can still wear black, just tone down any spikes, skulls, and bats.

I'm sort of in the same spot you are with jobs, but I've made a list of what I want to do and am slowly narrowing it down based on the criteria of money, transportation, and "why the heck would I ever want to do that!"

DON'T GO INTO THE MILITARY! Is the man asking for you to get your head shot off? At least wait til the war in Iraq is over to enlist, if you do. Or take a job that won't put you on the frontlines. Infantry = Cannon fodder!

[Barfing_Rat]

If you want to flirt with death and enjoy fighting and put your life on line, military is the best thing! I wish I can be in army

[KontanKarite]

Don't do the military, Drake. You're a smart guy. Yes, you're anti-establishment. Big deal. Think of it this way, if WW3 was to start, like or not, you'll have your own fight. Be it resisting the draft, being imprisoned for being "radical", or dying in the war itself.

In a WW3 situation, being who you are, life itself... would be virtually fucked. There's no easy way to eat a shit sandwich, so you may as well eat in such a way that you'd please. Trust me, WW3 was to happen, your life would be forfeit. You wont survive. No one will.

Depth, you have your own eyes and ears my friend. YOUR BODY IS YOUR LAST PROPERTY. Your parents are just scared for you because you don't adhere to the tried and true formula of life. They can't possibly see you being happy any other way. To them, you're playing a dangerous gambit. To you and just about every other person out there, you're just another guy, doing his thing to get by.

Trust me, if people want to demonize you in the work force, they'll find a way. You can't please everyone. It's impossible. So you should at least please yourself. YES, this will piss off a lot of people. But there isn't a damn thing you can do about it because people will be pissed just cause you're different.

Check this shit out. If you were drop dead gorgeous, people would hold it against you, thinking that life has been nothing but a free ride for you just because you're pretty. Now isn't that some crazy shit?

[TopHaggardDoll]

I have two friends who have been Goth from their teens up until now, one is even still doing the band thing and has long black hair.

One is a Bank Manager and the other is a Scientist.

Think about it.

[Splintered]

If World War III knocked off, and it was going to be a thermonuclear war, which branch of the military do you think would get attacked first? Hint, it's the only branch with any large stockpile of nuclear weapons, and rhymes with Chair Farce.

Having lived in IT culture all of my life, I've grown used to seeing how corporations work. I don't know if it's unique to IT, but the more you can do, the less it matters how you look. If I can keep the boss's email running nice and smoothly, I doubt he'll care if I want to wear black all the time.

Black isn't a bad look for corporate culture either. As long as you can look clean, sharp, and professional, it won't matter if you have a dash of darker fashion. Having clean, combed, dyed black hair with blue highlights is better then having long, messy, unkempt natural hair. Having a nice, pressed suit with your choice of "gothy" accessories looks better then showing up in a torn t-shirt.

Some times having a different look can do wonders for you. For instance, if you're going to do web design for a Web 2.0 company, they're going to favor someone who looks like they have a bit of creativity, then someone whose in a tie and suit, and looks like a carbon copy.

Take Google for instance. They're a multi-million dollar company who needs the best and the brightest in the world to keep on top. They're not going to care if you're a bit on the darker side, if you can deliver.

So, stick to yourself, and work on having your own skills. Being able to perform and do your job well will do more for your career, then being a carbon copy suit-and-tie.

[Zenit]

I was in the same exact position this spring, and my parents said just what your parents said. I followed their advice, buckeled down and did what I was told. Now I'm apatic and want to kill my self.

The times they are a-changing, your parents are not always right, and only you can make you happy. We don't know what will come.

And there is no "safe" jobs in the military!

edited b/c of bad spelling

[Minyaliel]

Honestly, it's your life, not your parents'. It's your decision, not theirs. How could they ever tell you what's the right choice for you? Listen, the only one who'll ever know what's right for you is you. Listen to your parents, take the good bits of advice and leave the rest. Remember that they are a different generation than you and have a different view of life than yourself due to the age gap and being born in different times. A lot of things have changed since your parents grew up, right? You don't need to live that standard life if you don't want to. Myself I've always believed that we only get one chance to live. That chance we should use fully, and not waste the time we have on bullshit. You have one life, it's yours to have, so do whatever you feel will make it great.

[DepthsofSpace]

It's great knowing you are not alone, sometimes.

I really, really need to become more assertive with myself an my parents. I keep watering myself down to make them comfortable and all I become is confused in my own mind about who I am.

Kontan, you have a point. I've already have a running FBI dossier for some associations, I wonder at some point if they'd let me into the military, or at least doing anything interesting. And things are about to get bad, though I tend to lean away from the fatalism and assert I will survive.

On the note of my parents grew up in another time, another place; this is true. I think we are much more liberal as a society now, which makes he fact that a lot of people assume I'm gay (which was another thing they have expressed concern over, I'm not overtly masculine) not an issue, nor the fact that I might look a bit odd.

I don't have tattoos, nor piercings. Nothing against them, just not my style. I dress "Corp-Goth" most days (black slacks, dark dress shirt), so I really don't see the issue. Nor do I see that going out with friends on a Friday/Saturday night, and spending the night, or staying out till three or four am is such a grievous crime; nor that it is not-age appropriate for someone going on 21 (how can I be to old to have my own social life?). Honestly, there is no drinking or drugs (I usually drink around much older people I know when we get together for parties held by organizations I'm in), I'm not into that either. I had no real social life growing up, that wasn't strictly controlled. I am not socially dysfunctional by a long shot, but I finally felt liberated living away from home the past few months. Now I'm back and I feel 16 again. I'd really like to finish off my degree ASAP and move back onto another distant college.

Thanks for the opinions, once again. Glad to know I'm not alone.

[KontanKarite]

I think when it comes to dealing with the prejudice views of others and when people talk about it here, I think what they're looking for is mainly that they're not alone about it.

Obviously, we can't give you permission to be exactly who you want to be no matter what, but we can all give you optimistic or pessimistic opinions about your situation and I'll just say that, no, you're not alone. We can all suck it up and let something of ourselves go and move on in life, but for the most part, there's a lot of people out there that aren't pleased with that choice. People like you and I for example.

[HumanePain]

Here is the 52 year old parent side opinion (I am a father with a 24 year old son and 22 year old daughter, and a grandfather):


a) There is a reason evolution has selected as a survival trait the tendency for each newer generation to rebel against the old ways: old ways may become obsolete, and thus the newer, more open minded generation can adapt to the present, the old wisdom may become new folly. What worked for your parents may not work for you.


b) There is an old, old African proverb: "Do not tear down fences put up by your fathers." And in the same vein: "Honor your father and your mother."
The background of these proverbs is to help launch the newer generation from the success of the previous generation and to take advantage of experience that was dearly earned, to avoid losing your time and youth learning lessons they already know.

These two things seem opposed, but they don't have to be. For example, your parents may be wrong that you have to clean up to be accepted in a job, they are unaware how flexible society has become. But some of their experience is NOT obsolete: to get an education and degree will still help you to have more choices in life later on and obtain better paying jobs. Education is always a good thing. But getting an education in farming is not because the individual farmer can no longer sustain a family and compete with agro-business corporations. Old ways are extinct, so it is up to you to see and choose an education in a current career that is relevant to today's society.

The military option has the advantage of good post military service benefits and retirement, but at the cost of risking your life. Is it worth the gamble?

I disagree with a "pre-emptive strike" on Iran for a couple of reasons:

1) Iran bloody well knows that the United States and Israel have had nuclear capability for some time and have stockpiles of well developed and lethal weapons. To strike them would be suicide as the retaliation would end Iran as a nation. So to say it would be "pre-emptive" is a false argument in my opinion.

2) Regardless who starts a nuclear exchange, Iran, Israel or the United States, it would set a dangerous precedent that 21st Century conflicts include atomic weapons. We should not open that Pandora's box. Yes, a lot of nations already have nuclear weapons, yes the secret has been spread and yes, the U.S. has used such weapons against Japan, but not since then have any been used in warfare.

But I must compliment you and your parents for communicating. Some families cannot even do that, so you are already ahead of the game.

[DepthsofSpace]

Thanks again, everyone. Given your age and experience HumanePain, I really appreciate your view and sentiment. They went through my car and stuff and pretty well went off on me today, going through CDs and books of mine, pretty much accused me of dabbling in the occult, etc. Really, it's a rather shitty situation and my weekend of clubbing has come to an end. However, I am getting a job, it looks like and I'm just going to go back to the closet with my private life (that they have assured me will result in my life's failure, as if my clothing and music (and this was the comparison they made) were heroin and pedophilia. I thought hat they were a bit more open minded that that, but whatever. Can't fight their system and as long as I'm under their roof, I'll play by their rules.

Seems so silly that a like of something (what they call demonic, evil and cult-ish) causes so much strife. Maybe I'm too liberal for my own good, I don't know. It just really ticks me off that they don't want me hanging out with any of my friends anymore. Not going to happen, but I guess I will play it safe. >_>

[KontanKarite]

So basically the deal is, if you be yourself, even when you're at home, they're going to pull the rug out from under your feet? If so, that's some manipulative bullshit.

Funny thing, I know you're smarter than this, but the more they tell you no, the more you're going to want to do it. :-/ Funny how it works that way, eh?

[DepthsofSpace]

Of course. However, it does have a positive result.

If supposedly I'm going to "waste my life away" if I "continue", then I think I need to make my life a wake-up call to them that their notion is quite a bit off kilter.

From this point on, I'm going to be better than my best. I'm not going to except grades less than As, I'm not going to be apathetic towards school. I'm going to go back to being the hard hitter I was, because arguably I have slacked off a bit over the last year. I'm not going to be persuaded off my goal and ideal of being a broker, and I'll be the best there was if I have anything to say about it.

So, not only will, yes they make me want to assert myself more as of who I am, but I will also assert myself in life as well. And the first economically wise and sound time I have, I'm out of here. I'm not going to be a begger on the street just to get out, but I am going to be out of here when it make economic sense to do so. I am better than that, I am an individual, I am capable and I think the world needs to look out.

(I'm feeling a bit better, as you might tell. Nothing is going to beat me)

[Minyaliel]

They did WHAT?! Excuse me, but really, if I found my mother going through my stuff I'd call the cops for breaking the law on personal privacy or something. Seriously, isn't that kind of stuff illegal over the pond? It is here....

[DepthsofSpace]

Not quite and, legally, they still have the car title, even though I've paid for everything on it (to the tune of around $4500-5000 over the last two years), which means I don't really own the rights to 'my' vehicle. Same with 'my' room, it is their house. No rights there, adult or not.

I'll be elsewhere within a year, no problem. I'll appease them for now.

[Breathless Horror]

Originally Posted by DepthsofSpace

So, questions and advice on this please:

Are they right? Is having my hair dyed and very pale skin, either currently or with the remnants showing, turning me off to any chance of getting a job, or functioning in society? Do I need a tan and no hint I might have ever done anything 'radical' with my hair in order to get a job? Same thing with going out of the house in my more 'gothy' attire and perchance being seen (oh my gosh! The horror!) by someone who knows me already, or might have considered me for a project or job?

I'm going to go with a resounding "fuck no they aren't right!". Twenty or thirty years ago, that might have cause some issues with jobs, but now most people don't really give a rat's ass what you look like as long as you do good work. Especially in jobs where you won't necesarily be in constant contact with the general public.

[ApothoKeri]

Originally Posted by DepthsofSpace

Thanks again, everyone. Given your age and experience HumanePain, I really appreciate your view and sentiment. They went through my car and stuff and pretty well went off on me today, going through CDs and books of mine, pretty much accused me of dabbling in the occult, etc. Really, it's a rather shitty situation and my weekend of clubbing has come to an end. However, I am getting a job, it looks like and I'm just going to go back to the closet with my private life (that they have assured me will result in my life's failure, as if my clothing and music (and this was the comparison they made) were heroin and pedophilia. I thought hat they were a bit more open minded that that, but whatever. Can't fight their system and as long as I'm under their roof, I'll play by their rules.

Seems so silly that a like of something (what they call demonic, evil and cult-ish) causes so much strife. Maybe I'm too liberal for my own good, I don't know. It just really ticks me off that they don't want me hanging out with any of my friends anymore. Not going to happen, but I guess I will play it safe. >_>

How old are you? Sorry if I missed that somewhere...I am assuming if you want to finish your BA that you are an adult or very close to it. Living in their house you should respect their rules but they should also respect you as a person. Just because they own a house that gives them no right to insult or disrespect you as a person. They do NOT have the right to treat you badly, no one ever does. I don't think they would take very well to you going through all of their stuff and pointing out everything that you found ridiculous about them then making totally irrational accusations about random stuff and being all over them about it.

I am not really sure that is a healthy environment to be in. People should have more respect for you than that. You should have more respect for yourself than to sit there and take and go along with that. Perhaps its time to think about finding a room mate or 2, getting some financial aid for school and doing it on your own. It's not impossible to do by any means...and it does not mean that you have to stop associating with your parents or anything but it doesn't sound as if it is the best place to live perhaps.

To answer a previous question, I am 35 and have had several jobs, been able to support myself, have a healthy marriage and career and never bent over backwards to change my appearance for anyone. I really don't think that it is healthy to try and repress who you are or to kill your loves and personal style and what makes you....you, in order to please others who think you should be what they want you to be and not what you want you to be. Your personal style will change and evolve over time but it should change in the direction that YOU want to take, as it is after all, your style. It's your life, not other peoples...they should do what makes them happy and you should do what makes you happy. People close to you should be able to respect that and not try and force something on you that you do not want. If you want to do something specific and it requires a conservative look, like be a banker for example, then yea probably no spikes on a jacket at work or eyeliner as a man, etc. But black hair is a totally normal, natural hair color...put on a black suit. It's not difficult. But what do they want you to dress for, corporate work? Is that the only option that they see? Again if you want to do that, by all means do...but if you prefer to be a photographer, a club owner, open a bakery, etc. then do that.

Do what makes you happy (and it is perfectly fine if you don't have your entire future life plan set in stone by the time you are not even out of college yet) and dress how you feel comfortable and what you think is appropriate for what you are doing. If you don't like what you end up doing, then change it and do something else. If you spend your life going into a line of work that you do not like, then what is the point? To be miserable for the next 40 years until you can retire? Or get training, experience and do something that you do enjoy? There are so many different things to do out there as far as making a living goes.

You said that you want to finish your BA and possibly go to grad school, so worry about that right now and what you need to do for a longterm job later. You don't even know what will change between now and then. Could be a hell of a lot.

My close friends and I turned out to be a sculptor (me) a professor of physics, an art teacher for mentally challenged children, doing workshops through a charity for them as well as freelance illustration of children's books, an art professor, a restaurant owner, an antique dealer, a travel agent, an online store owner (handmade jewelry), an online store owner (exotic fountain pens) and an industrial interior designer (for hospital/medical facilities). In another 20 years we may all be doing different things yet, who knows? I am not going to say that we all look like we did 20 years ago but none of us ever bent over backwards to please anyone else's sense of style or pretended to become 'what we should be' according to other people to get to where we are today either. What we have changed in appearance has more to do with that we can now afford to shop when and where we want to (within reason) and a lot wider variety of interesting stuff available now.

You really need to figure it out for yourself though, your parents have never been in your situation so they really can't say. We all have unique situations and in the end, only you can figure out what you need to be doing.

[Serephurus]

On formal occasions I just wear a black suit vest, black slacks, white button-up, black tie, black belt, and black dress shoes. It looks very professional.

My parents have said that I am too old to dress in all black and like studded belts. I'm only 16. They never let me dress this way because they thought being a 'badass' was too mature for my age.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Serephurus

On formal occasions I just wear a black suit vest, black slacks, white button-up, black tie, black belt, and black dress shoes. It looks very professional.

My parents have said that I am too old to dress in all black and like studded belts. I'm only 16. They never let me dress this way because they thought being a 'badass' was too mature for my age.

You know who was a sharp dresser? Ian Curtis. You know what else? I don't know if you do this, but maybe give DIY a chance. So your parents wont let you wear all black? Try making your own clothing or modding out clothing to be more "you".

Check it out, I have a denim jacket that's a weird comic book midnight blue color, it has zebra fur on the front and a back patch of "Bloody Dead And Sexy" on it. I also have shredded hosiery on the back to look like spiderweb.

There are some things darker than black. Now as for wearing all black as an aesthetic choice, well... damn. I feel kinda bad for you that your parents wont let you do that.

[Serephurus]

They let me wear black, but they always judge me on how I look. I shop at hot topic, but they don't like it if I put on eyeliner or anything of that sort. But they constantly give me the "corporate speach."

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Serephurus

They let me wear black, but they always judge me on how I look. I shop at hot topic, but they don't like it if I put on eyeliner or anything of that sort. But they constantly give me the "corporate speach."

Save yourself some money and try not to shop so much at stores selling you an identity.

I've yet to determine if you're a troll or not. :-/

[TheBloodEternity]

My mother gives me the "you're far to old to dress that way" speech when I'm only 15. And she told me to either strip my hair back to it's natural color, which would not only obliterate it and most likely turn it orange, but it's blond which looks awful on me or keep it black and she's "no longer allowing me to wear black" and I told her I can wear color and still be goth and she freaked out, said something about it's because Goth is a relgion.....

[Solumina]

Thankfully I have a wonderful mother who has decided that clothing is just clothing and hair is just hair (although she was less than fond of the pink hair but I think that was just because she didn't think it was flattering), then again she was a flower child back in the day and she turned out fine so she knows that there is hope for me

[TheBloodEternity]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Thankfully I have a wonderful mother who has decided that clothing is just clothing and hair is just hair (although she was less than fond of the pink hair but I think that was just because she didn't think it was flattering), then again she was a flower child back in the day and she turned out fine so she knows that there is hope for me

I think my mother will disown me way before she gets to this point. As far as the pink hair, everyone thinks I look way better with my black hair than I do with blond, she just thinks I keep it black because I'm goth (that was my original motive for dying it that color, but I kept it because it looks so much better on me.)