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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 07-27-2008, 02:15 PM   #1
Despanan
 
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My Experience with Communal life.

Kay so for those of you who don't know, I'm currently doing a thru-hike of the Appalachain trail. I just spent the last week walking through Vermont (where it rained constantly, all day, every day)

To get out of the rain a couple of friends and myself ended up staying with this exhippy-ish commune in Rutland Vermont called "The Twelve Tribes" Weblink here: www.twelvetribes.com I was excited to check the place out, as Kontan and myself had been hanging with some anarcho-punkish people before we left, who had been espousing the virtues of communal life.

All in all the people were very very nice. They opened their doors to us, fed us, clothed us, gave us a shower and a place to stay, and overall went far out of their way to ensure that we had a good, relaxing time all for free. All they asked in return was that we do about 20-40 minutes of work per day for them (usually involving working in the kitchen) while we stayed there. Everything that we ate and drank was top shelf and organic, you get the idea.

Though they were primarily a religious community they weren't particularly pushy about their beliefs. They basically told us: There's some literature over there, and feel free to ask us questions if you like.

This other hiker and I were kinda facinated by the whole thing so we started grilling them. We were polite but we asked tough questions: "How is this place politically organized?" "How are your children educated?" "What do you think about the rest of the world / other religions?" and of course "How do you treat your women?"

While a great deal of the stuff was a breath of fresh air, I managed to detect an undercurrent of Authoritarianism, and as the days went by bit by bit their philosophy became clearer to us.

Surrender of oneself and all of one's posessions to the community. Near complete removal from your family in favor of the community. They didn't own anything, and all their clothes were taken from a communal pool. Self-expression was discouraged (though they did create art, but it was art for the whole, not the individual). Children were not educated past 14 (excluding an apprenticeship to a communal tradesman) Higher education was frowned upon, almost seen as an evil because "Knowlege for Knowlege sake is useless, it just puffs you up." (I got the distinct impression that knowlege was dangerous because it elevated people above the community, and caused dangerous individualistic ideas). Women were there simply to support the men, and a man should be a benevolent dictator to his wife. that kind of stuff.

After a few days living with them I consider them all good people and many of them to be personal friends, however I am more convinced than ever that their way of life is not for me.

What I'm wondering about is that I'm seeing a little bit of dissonance between a number of people in the Goth scene I've met who have been preaching for this communal way of living, and the reality that I experienced. Granted, this was a religious commune (though they insisted they were secular, and only religiously inspired) but still, I found their very structure to be even more stifeling to personal freedom and expression than our current society. How is it that so many ardent individualists among the scene have come to champion a way of life that is so hostile to the individualism we obviously love so much?

Anyway that's my question. Do I have the wrong idea about communal living,(and if I do can someone give me an example of an actual functioning commune that doesn't stifle personal expression & achievment?) or is there an attitude that I'm missing in the scene?
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Old 07-27-2008, 03:44 PM   #2
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What you saw represents a small minority of communal living, mainly the ones who advertise, put out literature and so forth, most of the less rigid communes you wouldn't even know existed until you wandered into their area. The communes I've experienced (like yours, mine were short stays) are quite the opposite, there are several that come here to Chicago during the summer, and leave in the winter. Especially the impression you got about womens' roles seems very unusual, I've never seen, or heard of, any commune that operates with a sexist system.

However, what you mentioned about the lack of higher education, which seems to be the norm. If there are children living there, they're usually encouraged to focus on art and music more than formal education. I don't even know if a lot of the kids there went to school, I think they were considered "home schooled". I wouldn't recommend a commune as a place to raise a kid.
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Old 07-27-2008, 04:45 PM   #3
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Oh one more thing. As a general rule, if they refer to themselves as a "commune" it's usually a good idea to avoid them. Usually a group won't go out of their way to explain their way of living together to an outsider, most consider that pushing their ideas on you, something that is very frowned upon. At least, that's my experience.
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Old 07-27-2008, 06:15 PM   #4
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Well, that's the problem with communes. Collectives are a bit better if you ask me but takes a far more responsible group of people to participate.

You can't judge the ideas of a commune based on what you've seen. Let me put it in this context for you...

If I started a commune, why would you be so comfortable living there?

Indeed, there are certain types of communes and they all have different goals and ideas. Not all of them are like that.

I think the thing you have to remember is that life requires work and effort. I, personally, would not don vinyl and lace while tilling a field. Sometimes, certain work requires a more logical and practical form of dress.

Imagine a commune that was based on autonomy and individual expression while being able to collectively get the needs taken care of w/o others striving to hold on to illogical egos.

I've been thinking about that a lot. Personally, in a society where it was more anarchistic, I find I would be compelled to spend some of my day as a farmer or cleaner and the rest of the day as an artist or entertainer. Basically, a service to the people that I'm willing to do and then the rest of me belongs to me.
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Old 07-27-2008, 06:18 PM   #5
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If you think about it the world is a giant commune. We all do our part to so we can get the things we need.
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Old 07-27-2008, 06:26 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catch
If you think about it the world is a giant commune. We all do our part to so we can get the things we need.
I have to disagree with this statement because in the communes that were described by the OP and others there is no personal ownership and acquisition of property, but in the world there is personal property and accumulation of personal wealth, with others catering to the whims of those who hire them.

Thus a social strata defined by individual purchasing power makes the world very unlike a commune.
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Old 07-27-2008, 06:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanePain
I have to disagree with this statement because in the communes that were described by the OP and others there is no personal ownership and acquisition of property, but in the world there is personal property and accumulation of personal wealth, with others catering to the whims of those who hire them.

Thus a social strata defined by individual purchasing power makes the world very unlike a commune.
Yea, unfortunately, a commune is basically the opposite of the rest of the world.

Anyway, I hope I helped, OP.
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Old 07-27-2008, 08:28 PM   #8
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I'm sorry if I was unclear; they did not refer to themselves as a commune, it was only after prodding from me that the guy reluctantly agreed that the term applied. They simply referred to themselves as "a community based on love" Similarly, they did not advertise their beliefs, they only responded to my questions.

Anyway, I'm not exactly sure what the difference is between a "Commune" and a "Collective" but as I've said the idea of one of these places being anarchistic seems to be a contradiction in terms. I'm unclear on how one would properly allocate resources, do away with personal property, or realistically manage to keep the collective together without the various members giving up their own freedom and individuality in favor of the whole.

Does anyone have a link or something to an actual working, secular, anarchistic collective, or is it just an idea at this point? I'm curious to see how they're structured.
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Old 07-27-2008, 08:49 PM   #9
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Ahh ok, I misinterpreted then. I don't think there's any difference between a commune and a collective, I think someone misinterpreted what I had said, I meant that if they go around saying how they live together, pooling resources etc, they tend to be kind of pushy (generalization of course). As for the beliefs part, as far as my experience goes, for a commune to have a website and printed brochures is almost unheard of, normally it's usually word of mouth, or just wandering into it.

I'm not sure where the anarchist point got brought up. If I were to put a label on most communes it would be a socialist system, I do know of some that call themselves anarchist, but I admit I'm not sure how they draw that conclusion. If you're looking at giving up personal property as giving up individuality and freedom, (no offense intended) I think you're going to have a hard time understanding the commune idea. That's kind of the whole idea, that you don't need worldly possessions to be an free individual, or on the extreme, that the lack of worldly possessions only makes your more free since you're not caught up in the chase for them.
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Old 07-27-2008, 09:30 PM   #10
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Well, in the positive side you have been witness that alternative societies can happen and can sustain themselves. The problem then comes to a conflict of ideas.
I myself disagree with them in some things, but the fundamental philosophy of communal living seems to work. Some things that I don't agree with, for example, are obviously the suppression of the individual. The Community/Individual dichotomy is not real. You don't need to be like your brothers to get along with them. An individual can still have a self-identity that emphasizes his voluntary belonging to the community as an awesome means of self-actualization, for example.
And anarchists that are not all that into anarchocommunism but still like collectivism stress the difference between private property and ownership. You can own a toothbrush or clothes because the community has no problem with you having them. However, you would not be able to own a means of production that takes away the power of others in your community to participate in resource allocation.

Now, to your question of whether anarchist collectives have actually happened: yes. There's actually several in America. I know of a CrimethInc. collective in Atlanta and in Rhode Island (I suppose Providence). I'll look for some links and get back to you on that later.
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:43 AM   #11
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Cool, thanks guys

It's good to know that there are people out there who are able to live in such a different society, not to mention how kind the twelve tribes was to me.
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Old 07-28-2008, 12:23 PM   #12
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Here's a list of contacts provided by the Proudhon memorial computer
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/anarchism/usa.html

Only some of them are collectives. Many of them are organizations and others acephalic movements, but there's several collectives included too.
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