Iluminatti's Very Own Personal Thread

[illuminatti]

there were so many insults sent my way regarding my post in "labeling yourself as 'goth' or 'punk'" that i decided to make a completely new topic because I see that we have a problem here.
Okay...looks like i didn't express myself correctly then. What i said about goths not carring about what goes on in the world...i meant something else by that, so you all might as well forget that I ever wrote it. I personaly consern myself very much with the goings on in the world.
Now, you all had problems with the stereotypes. The word may seem negative, but stereotypes are an important phenomenon. When someone sais: "I am gothic/punk etc" he means a particular thing by it and expects the same association with the word from other people.
Lets take the style gothic as an example. I know a satanist that calls himself gothic, and a group of freaks that consider themselves goths, and also a mystic-melancholic that calles herself gothic as well. All these people have little in common but neve the less consider themselves gothic. It's like having the same word defined differently in every dictionary. i understand that everyone is an individuality, but then why not each have a different style and leave it at that? Why call yourslf gothic but be the complete opposite of some goth next door? It doesn't make much sence to me.
What i said about punks is an example of what happens whan there are different understandings or misuse of a word. I was reffering to a certain group of punks here in vienna. They consider themselves anti-Nazi mashines, write anti-Niazi signs allover the place and just can't talk about anything else. My ex boyfriend was one of them and i was sure that all punks are supposed to be like that. I did some searching and discovered that "punk" can mean almost anything, from a rebel to just a dress style. Here in vienna there is a group of people, all of whom are over 30, who live in a public bathroom and refuse to go to work as a protest. They call themselves punks. You were all so against stereotypes, but don't you see the importance of having an international definition for something like "punk" or "goth"?
So go ahead and call me ignorant or arrogant, but I think it's important to have ONE association with a certain word. I sugest we try to figure out what exactly the styles gothic and punk mean. So the question is this: "Shouldn't there be a BASIC stereotype for any style and what exactly is it for 'gothic' and 'punk'?"

[Electrocutioner]

Illuminatti,
The basic stereotype of being a 'Goth' is completely dependent on your experiences with other people who consider themselves Goths. The same goes for pretty much every label you could give a person. The interpretation of what it is to be a Goth cannot be formalised because it is a 'culture'. Cultures vary depending upon the area and with the beliefs and practices of the people associated with that culture. To say that "Punks all hate Nazis" tells me that you haven't any experience of Punks that do not hate them.
Stereotyping is something that will always happen in this world, whether we like it or not. It is how people become persecuted and abused for being associated with a certain group. Nobody (that I know) likes to be stereotyped because it is the outcome of an unwanted judgement made upon them as a person, and as such, interferes with our human right to freedom and freedom of speech. How much and in what way it interferes is completely dependent on the person and the situation they are being stereotyped in.
I guess what I am trying to say is, being a Punk or a Goth is just a label, and one that others can judge you by. Sometimes the label is wanted, sometimes it isn't. But you just have to remember that by questioning people's cultures will result in them being none-too-happy with you. To some people, being a Goth is their FAITH, and they can even go as far as to use the LAW to shut you up.

don't you see the importance of having an international definition for something like "punk" or "goth"?

I see the importance that the stereotype for such people remains undefined, because the very nature of being a 'Goth' is to be different, to stand up for what you want to be, what you want to do, and for who you are. Everyone is unique, let's not become a formal organisation.

There is no 'problem' here, except for people like you who try their hardest to tell everyone that they are more 'Goth' or 'Punk' than everyone else. We are individuals, and we are all being who we want to be.
Don't be your own role-model, and certainly don't tell us to be yours.
I suggest you be very careful where you tread from here on in, as offending people here can get you banned.

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The Electrocutioner

[illuminatti]

I don't know where you got the "role-model" junk from...I am not trying to be my own nor anybody else's role-model. Since when do I go around trying to demonstrate that I am more goth that others? Where did you get that from?
Fine, you don't like idea of stereotypes...so you say that every person can mean something completely different when they say "I'm gothic"? What is the point of saying that, then? Why not just say "wierdo" or "different" or something else if you wanna emphasize your individuality.
yes, Gothic is a culture, but like any culture, it must have some basic ideas that all people belonging to it should have. Because if gothic means just being different, then why is there also something called punk or hippy, loner, etc. Maybe because there are different factors attached to these styles (cultures, if you like). I understand that the same culture can take different turns depending on the circumstances and place where it developes, but there MUST be some common factors uniting these people into ONE culture. Such factors don't stop people from being individualities, but just determine their interests etc.
And I wasn't insulting anyone. Okay, so I was harsh on punks. The ones that I have met so far did not gain any sympathy from me. My ex was a complete idiot and now i am at the point of reinterpriting the meaning "punk" so that i wouldn't associate all punks with that group of people. And now you tell me that there is no certain definition of that. So punk means just being different? And so is gothic, you say...So what the hell is the difference?

[Electrocutioner]

Whatever the difference is, it is unwritten, and it should stay that way.
Saying "I am a Goth" to someone implies certain 'belonging', and the respect (or lack thereof) that goes with the name. If I said "I am a weirdo" to someone, they are going to look at you in a completely different light aren't they? The term 'weirdo' is a slightly derogatory term, it doesn't do any favours for the respect of the individual, but saying that, in some groups saying you are a weirdo can be non-derogatory because perhaps the others in that particular group consider themselves to be weirdos too.
Saying you are 'Different' jsut tends to confuse the situation, because that presents you with a completely blank profile in which to describe and/or compare yourself to others...
All that i'm saying is that the meanings of such names can all be respective to a lot of unmentioned factors, such as culture, lifestyle, beliefs, dress-sense, political stature, etc etc etc...

I choose to believe that being a Goth is being free. It is the statement to wear what you want to wear, worship who or what you want to worship, and do what you want to do.
If we start putting a 'fixed' label, description or any other kind of rule like this on being part of such a culture, then we are slowly nibbling away on the freedom edges of the proverbial big-cheese of human-rights.

You just have to accept that not everyone will always fall into a 'category' so that you can judge them accordingly. I believe that nobody should have to fit into such a category, I believe that everybody should be free of judgement and that the world should be a happier place, but thats what dreamers do isn't it?

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The Electrocutioner

[Electrocutioner]

Oh, and I got the impression that you were trying to be a 'role-model' from reading [i]this[/]:

okay....now pay attention: PUNK AND GOTH HAVE NO FUCKIN' THING IN COMMON! trust me, i know what i'm talking about. okay, fine, i admit that the dress style is very simmilar...but that is all. Goths, as far as i know, don't run arround yelling "Nazis fuck off". As far as i know, Goths don't give a damn about nazis, or atleast don't make it their life long destiny to fight against them. Punks are all about protesting and I don't know a single real goth that wasn't absolutely indifferent to the whole fuckin' world.
Goths are all about death and mystics, (satanism too, if u like, but i get really pissed when "goth" is immediatly assiciated with "satanist" or "masohist"). If a punk has interests like that, than that is no punk!
I have gotten to known one punk too many since I moved to vienna and I really know what I am talking about.

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The Electrocutioner

[illuminatti]

okay, okay. I agree that "labels" may make someone feel less free. But you didn't answer my question.
Being gothic means being free, you say. Then what is the difference between gothic freedom and punk freedom? I think that styles like gothic or punk should unite people with similar interests, which means that saying you are goth or punk, you exress the fact that you have certain interests. I don't mean you should have ABSOLUTELY the same interests as other goths, but only that you have something in common. I am not sugesting that we have a whole binch of goth-clones running around. But simply people that can relate to the same culture, simmilar interests and maybe life-style. That doesn't stop you from believing in what you want to believe or doing what the hell you wanna do. You can't just choose to call yourself gothic because you like how the word sounds. There has to be a POINT in belonging to a certain culture. There can't be a style/culture the point of which is simply to be free. Styles/cultures exist because each differs somehow from the other. So i ask again: if gothic means just being free, then what is punk? Is there no difference?

[illuminatti]

You must have problems with reading then, beacause there was nothing there that sugested me trying to be a role-model.

[Electrocutioner]

As you said, it's all about interests, styles and anything else groups can have in common. Punks have different interests than Goths. But they may not. Nothing is written, which keeps everyone free to choose what they want. Being a Goth is like being able to play the guitar. You can call yourself a guitarist whether you are a pro or an amateur. Likewise, you can call yourself a Goth whether you have been one for 5 minutes of for 50 years. I myself am friends with a few punks, and they are not so different from many of my Goth friends.
Maybe we should accept that people will do what they want and stop trying to filter them into categories.


And don't talk to me about problems with reading, I felt you insinuated that you were better than me, so I reacted accordingly.
N.B. Learn some grammer before you talk to me about my reading. Maybe when what you write is coherent then I will not fail to understand you.

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The Electrocutioner

[Deadhymn]

You see, its threads like this that are just plain tiring. This conversation is so played out and overdone it's not even really worth pointing out any more. WHO CARES? If you have something to prove, do it elsewhere. This thread is locked.

[Electrocutioner]

You know she'll just start a new one somewhere else... Why don't you just move this thread to 'Whining'?

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The Electrocutioner

[MrMaelstrom]

I can't believe I never came across this thread before... WOW, such drivel...