Vegan / Vegetarian Goths

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by nuksaa

Propose a 'what if' question. If everyone did stop eating meat from these type of animals, what would the solution be as to what to do with these animals? Would we be dooming a species to extinction?

I don't see how that's a problem. Nobody worries about the cow that never exists. They are worried about the cow that does exist and gets treated badly and killed. I suppose there would be a certain loss of biodiversity, which seems like a shame, but that is not a moral concern. Anyway, at least some of these species would never have existed if not for man's intervention, so them not existing would be a "return" to "nature", if you will.

The whole flesh-eating thing is an issue in my own life that periodically returns to plague me. On the one hand the side of me that often strikes me as most true is this peace loving fluffy happy type, and I can't stand to kill animals with my own hands - nor will my sense of intellectual integrity allow me to pretend that I am not causally responsible when I choose to eat meat.

On the other hand, I look in the mirror and I see eyes oriented for bifocal vision, flesh-tearing canines, and a large cranium housing a highly developed brain which depends upon nutrients not be available to an herbivore in the primitive state.

I think omnivorousness (including meat eating) is obviously the natural pattern for humans as animals, but is that a reason to choose it as thinking people? It seems unreasonable to ask people to behave against their animal nature, but then it can seem unavoidable, too. Rapine [fancy word inserted on edit to avoid censorship that happened to four letter word] and murder are also perfectly natural behaviors.

The core issues behind this strike very, very deep. I took a jab at Catholics regarding abortion above, but actually the two issues are connected. At the heart of the meat-eating question, we find the big questions.

I don't believe in "middle grounds" and when people start swinging the word "balance" around, I start rolling my eyes - BUT, I do believe in third alternatives and avoiding false antipoles. One thing I have realized about myself, that may parallel sentiments expressed above, is that at least part of what bothers me is not the killing, but the domestication, with is attendant cruelty.

When I picture myself stalking and killing a deer in the forest with a bow, I am not so deeply troubled... I can even see it as a spiritual thing in which the deer has its due respect even as I kill it (and indeed you see exactly that sentiment among both primitive peoples and modern hunters).

In contrast, there is something undeniably and profoundly unholy about the coop, the sty, and the abattoir. And in the end I cannot help but wonder whether kinder and gentler methods aren't an answer that responds to the wrong question. The deepest irony, in my view, is that for most people the list above does not include the office building, the condominium, or the poll booth. The most tragic victim of domestication is the human animal. Actually, there's a kind of poetic justice there.

Several years ago I promised myself that one day I would either go hunting and kill an animal myself, or quit eating meat. I haven't gotten around to forcing the issue yet, but I am pleased with the approach. Maybe what it's really about for any particular person is not whether or not animals are there for eating, but whether or not that person is there for eating them.

Drake

[DarkGentleman]

Originally Posted by owlx

Humm. I've been a vegetarian for over three years, though for about a year of that (first 6 months or so, and currently) I have eaten fish for health reasons.

Funny, I've been the same way myself. Three years ago after a serious relationship ended, I moved on to improve my life with trying out a new diet and eating less meat. I have always loved seafood and still eat fish because of low fat/more protein.
No beef for me, I'm sick of supporting ranchers that pump their livestock with steriods and junk. No wonder the cattle's immune system were low when the "mad cow" and BSE effected them highly. Second: too fatty for me.
I still eat eggs and a little bit of chicken as well. Tofu and Soy milk are awesome to have as alternatives.
I go an organic market that between home and work. Impressive selection, but the prices can be a little steep. Supporting local organic farmers is a good thing knowing that they don't use pesticides or additives to their products.

[killer_asian_Dax]

Originally Posted by DarkHeartedDemoness

yes, uncooked tofu is disgusting.

OI! I can't believe what I've just read!! Uncooked tofu is one of the greatest foods on earth. Granted- just by itself it is a little more than an acquired taste, but if you add bonito flakes, chopped green onions and shoyu- it becomes the greatest meals/snacks on earth! Not to mention also a much healthier alternative to crisps or candy.

[ArtificialOne]

To be fair to the ag industry. We have had thousands of years of evolution farming wise to come up with the means to grow mass amounts of food for hundreds of thousands of people.

I do agree we need to better research certain chemicals and agents to see if they still need to be used. The newer chems are better tested and under tighter scrutiny than previous years.

As far as the cattle thing... I think that needs to be investigated. I know near where I am now is the dairy capitol of the US and many of the new producers are very green and concious of it all. On the other hand there are several old dairies still not meeting the stricter standards of today.

As far as food additives and anything not naturally in the food it should be reinvestigated. Allot of the stuff is a throughback to the 50's and still being used. I love science and it's important to make sure things are safe.

Let's also not forget the horrible food born illnesses of not more than 60yrs ago. I mean has any of you read about health quality and illnesses of the past?... horrible... I mean like bad!!!

I don't want to go back to those days, but I would like the old 50's preservatives reinvestigated. I saw and interesting story on Aus tv about a link between preserves and ADD. But then again, a good diet and excersise will make most small problems go away.

[Ishkabibble]

Originally Posted by VamPirate

nope, I talked to my local animal control officer (he oversees the shelter I volunteer at) and he says that farm animals will return to their natural “wild” state in just a couple/few generations (pigs especially)

I say that we (humans) should (slowly over a period of time) should shut down the factory farms, let the animals return to nature where they belong , and get on with fixing human problems

We waste too much money in growing the most profit out of animals because of our hunger. It is unfair how much food is just given out to animals for a most efficient and rapid growth, while there are millions of poor comunities out there that would die to eat the grains farmers feed to chickens!

Animals were born in the wild, that's where they should stay.
...Not in your belly.

[dark_dragon_of_ice]

Thats a great Idea!!!, Il send all the poor comunities all the grass we feed our cows.

[Ishkabibble]

Well I was reading about how the grains that are fed to chickens can be used to feed starving communities.

[Saddiction]

Originally Posted by Ishkabibble

Animals were born in the wild, that's where they should stay.
...Not in your belly.

I had the best steak ever today!

[Vako]

I've known some vegans. They had such good complexions and smooth skin, and their hair was so shiny. I also like the way they smell.

[ArtificialOne]

Feed the grain to starving people?!!

What about the starving chickens!!!!

Meanies!!

[dark_dragon_of_ice]

How about we feed the chickens to the starving people.

[Kraven de Sade]

Or the starving people to the chickens? We'll call it soylent green...

[dark_dragon_of_ice]

Yes!!!... we can fix two problems at the same time!! Feed the homeless to the hungry =D

[Ishkabibble]

How about we just stop eating the chickens and let them roam freely by themselves. And give the starving people a decent job so they can have a steady income for food. x3
If only it were as simple as making paper flowers.

[Kraven de Sade]

Stop eating chickens? Dear lord, KFC would go bankrupt! And what would we ever do then?

Oh, right... go to Jack in the Box.

[dark_dragon_of_ice]

Let them roam free...Have you any idea what the effects of trying to stop farming and releasing domesticated animals into an environment that they can’t handle would do to them and to the worlds economy?

[Ishkabibble]

Originally Posted by dark_dragon_of_ice

Let them roam free...Have you any idea what the effects of trying to stop farming and releasing domesticated animals into an environment that they can’t handle would do to them and to the worlds economy?

I am aware the animals wouldn't survive since they are so used to being fed by farmers and not acquiring food by their own means. I guess there's not a very good way in which to stop animal cruelty and not harming the economy so much, but if animals were treated with much more dignity and less cruelty, there would probably be a heck lot less organizations that go against animal cruelty and there wouldn't be much opposition against farming or keeping animals in captivity. What IS completely wrong is to use animals to test products on. Mostly cosmetics.

[dark_dragon_of_ice]

What if the animal is being used to test drugs or any new medical procedure that could save millions of animals (including humans) lives?
And yes medicine is a product

[PersephoneX]

I’ve heard that people that stop eating meat begin to smell different. Not like stinky, but different. Is it true?

[Tin_Lizzie]

Originally Posted by PersephoneX

I’ve heard that people that stop eating meat begin to smell different. Not like stinky, but different. Is it true?

Yes, that's true. I've been a vegetarian since 1998, and my husband says I smell like apples . I've noticed that carnivores smell really acrid to me now (no offence). Also, if someone slips me food prepared with meat product (broth or lard) I get ill. It's not something I expected when I swore off eating animal flesh.

[Mir]

Well your body just isn't used to it anymore, thats why. I love meat. *Points at his incisors* We have these for a reason. I don't advocate cruel herding animals for food or hunting so don't jump on me on this one.

[Tin_Lizzie]

I'm not THAT kind of vegetarian (LOL), I don't proselytize and I won't accuse you of murder for eating meat. When people ask me why I'm vegetarian, I usually say it's against my religion because I'm not really political on that point.

One of my best friends was a total carnivore, and when we ate out, he gave me his veggies. He said that if I didn't eat meat, that meant all the more for him. Gods, I miss him. He died of stomach cancer. Don't let that happen to you, eat your garnish! OK, that's all the preaching I'll ever do. Be well, Mir.

[MollyMac]

This sounds like an asshole statement, but I believe that if you do not have the stomach to kill and dress something, then you shouldn't eat it. If you cannot deal with how your food is prepped, then how can you eat it?

I was raised on a small farm and was party and hand to the slaughter and the preparation of animals as a food source. From egg to cow. It is gruesome, hard, and sometimes heartwrenching work. I will not say that it was painless for the animals, but we were also not a corporation with profit on the brain. I did not eat meat for a long time after college after hearing about conditions of animals raised on larger company farms, but slowly came back with free range and local meat producers.

I have as much issue with preachy carnivores as I do with preachy vegetarians/vegans. I think it's nice to be in the first world where we can choose what we want to eat instead of eating whatever is given to us or isn't rancid. Hell, it's nice to be well off enough to make these choices.

[PersephoneX]

i learned how to kill a chicken. And i once road over a squirrel...I think i earned my right to be a carnivore.

[Saddiction]

Originally Posted by dark_dragon_of_ice

What if the animal is being used to test drugs or any new medical procedure that could save millions of animals (including humans) lives?
And yes medicine is a product

I believe that this type of testing is important to our advancement, however, there is no need for these research scientists to treat the test subjects in cruel fashion for their own enjoyment. I've seen it in videos. Making monkeys dance and prodding animals through their cages. This type of behaviour I find to be unacceptable.

Also, I'd be less concerned with food and more concerned with fashion. The worst thing I have EVER seen was a video of a fur farm. If you want to direct your concern of animal cruelty, direct them at the rich old bags who spend $5k on a mink coat.