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Old 02-28-2007, 06:41 PM   #26
Drake Dun
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 1,178
I'm not sure what kind of proof a link to the front page of the forums is, but in any case there was never an issue about whether you wrote the poem. I will take it on faith that you did.

The issue was with your claim that you are "literate" in Japanese. This clearly is not the case, as if it were, you would recognize that the machine translations you are getting from Babel Fish, including this last translated post, are not even intelligible as Japanese.

I don't want to leave a bad taste in your mouth, though. If you actually want to learn Japanese proper like, I could give you some pointers. On the other hand if you just want to tell people that you already know Japanese without getting caught, I can just stay silent in the future.

Drake
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Old 02-28-2007, 07:45 PM   #27
655322
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyantra
I have been teaching myself Japanese for the past 5 years.
You obviously have a great interest and love of the language if you have stuck at it for 5 years. That takes a lot of dedication and perseverance, especially if you are living in a place where hardly anyone else speaks the language, and you are doing it by yourself. That is something I'm not sure I could do. I think you deserve praise for that and you should be proud of that. It's easy for Drake to pick on you because he lives in Japan where he is in an advantageous position to check your claims. If he studies the language, he appreciates how difficult it is, even in Japan.

I agree with him though, in that you shouldn't say that you are literate in a language when you aren't. You did set yourself up for his comment. It takes the Japanese themselves 12 years of schooling to become literate; ie, learn to read and write all the jouyou kanji, which, as a whole and in itself, only accounts for a fraction of the kanji that are out there. I don't think I will ever be in a position to claim to be literate in Japanese, even though I'd like to say so also.

I have no doubt that you are seriously studying the language, as I am. Though what you wrote (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) seems, to my western eyes, forced. I don't profess to being an expert. You should have your teacher look at the sentences you wrote and get some help from him/her. I do think however, that forcing your language skills to deal with more complex situations and therefore structures, is a vital part of improving your skills. If you try to do things you aren't ready for, you will appear foolish. There is nothing wrong with that, that is learning. But, you should avoid saying you "happen to be literate", because then you actually become a fool and an easy target.

Learning a second language is a life long process, it doesn't stop. Why? Because the language is constantly changing. That's the good and the bad of it. I'm constantly coming across new words and expressions that surprise and intrigue me, in Japanese and even in English. The point is, (and I'm sure you don't need me to tell you this but) don't give up and let the comments get you down, but don't put your foot in your mouth either, because that just encourages people to take the piss.

Oh.... here, have an Oreo.
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Old 02-28-2007, 07:48 PM   #28
655322
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake Dun
If you actually want to learn Japanese proper like, I could give you some pointers.
I'm ready for some. What do you suggest?
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Old 02-28-2007, 11:02 PM   #29
Drake Dun
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 1,178
Well... to give you specific pointers, I would have to know more about where you are in your studies. However, the following are general pointers that would apply to anybody. You may have already figured all this stuff out yourself, and judging from your level you obviously are past some of them, but it is my generic list, as it were.

1) No romaji. Ever. DO NOT STUDY JAPANESE in romaji. Learn your hiragana and katakana and study real written Japanese. Never buy a book that teaches in romaji and avoid even the ones that teach in both Japanese and romaji unless you find one that is really good. It's very hard when you are first starting out to peel your eyes away from the romaji and focus on the kana, and you just do not need the extra difficulty.

I cannot express how important this is. To give you an idea of the pace you want to hit if you are aiming for actual fluency, the hiragana and katakana syllabaries should not take you more than a couple of weeks each to master. That will seem relaxed once you start kanji.

2) Start learning kanji sooner rather than later. I learned the jyouyou list plus the extra 114 required for the JLPT level 1 at a breakneck pace and it still took me a year and a half. Okay, side story (not relevant, but I love it so much I have to tell you)... I had a notebook into which I wrote each kanji, with example words, as I learned it. I put the last one in at the top of Mt. Fuji.

The maddening thing is that until you hit about 1000 or so, the ones you know are close to useless. Every sentence you read has too many kanji you don't know for the ones you do know to have any context. They start to be of use at around 1000... by 1500 they are significantly useful, and when you hit about 2000 you can call yourself literate. If you're like me, it will be very helpful to keep something that shows your progress (otherwise it is easy to despair). I had a Word file with all the kanji I needed to learn in blue. I greyed each one out as I learned it, so I could watch the chart slowly change color.

3) One of your first serious tasks is to get a working comprehension of the basic structure of the language. Know what a grammatical subject is, what a grammatical topic is, and which one Japanese focuses on and why and how. This is the primary regard in which Japanese grammar is fundamentally dissimilar to English. It's not a question of in which order the S, V, and O appear in Japanese. The S, V, and O paradigm does not even fit. Learn your は and が early... I still make mistakes with them.

4) Have an organized plan of attack and good sources. I am a straight-up book learning type, and if you think at all like me I recommend just getting the test specifications for the JLPT. There is a list of vocabulary, a list of kanji, and a list of grammar. The vocabulary and kanji can be done using dictionaries. The only part you are going to have to go hunting around for is the grammar.

The grammar falls out into what I would call "raw grammar" and "patterns". Raw grammar is stuff like verb inflections, the conditionals, and so forth. "Patterns" include idiomatic expressions and all that good stuff. Both are listed in the test specs (it basically goes from raw grammar at levels 4 and 3 to patterns at levels 2 and 1).

For raw grammar the source you want is the Japan Times' "A Dictionary of Japanese Grammar" series. Right now they have "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" and "A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar". Those two are enough for pretty much everything I run into.

For patterns I recommend this site、which totally kicks ass:

http://ws.31rsm.ne.jp/~toolware/dict...ictionary.html

It's in Japanese, but by the time you are worrying about patterns that shouldn't be a problem. There are some good books out there, too.. I recently picked up 日本語の重要表現文型, from 専門教育出版. The explanations are not as good as on that site, but it is more comprehensive in terms of which patterns it hits.

5) Switch to Japanese only materials as soon as possible (the Dictionaries of Japanese Grammar are the only mixed source I use now). That includes your dictionary lookups. By the time you know 1500 kanji or so, you should NOT be using bilingual dictionaries anymore. Unfortunately, I do not know any online sources for kanji that are really great, although you can find tolerable ones with a google search. For words, do not was your time with anything other than Goo:

dictionary.goo.ne.jp (note: no "www")

They even give you the accent, so you can distinguish how to pronounce 端, 橋, and 箸, for example.

6) Last... and you knew this was coming, but if you want to become truly conversant, you will have to live for for at least a year or two.

Drake
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