God does not exist.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Man In Room 5

"God only speaks to us" is the basic claim of all religions born out of the middle eastern messiah complex.

In Christianity, he speaks to all, this is what pissed off the Jews: that even Gentiles were included in salvation. But Jesus intended to save individuals, not governments. In order for the life changing function to be able to take effect and save the individual from self defeating behavior, one must believe in the deity of Jesus, otherwise it doesn't work.

Originally Posted by Man In Room 5

Every religion claims this and this is why they are all killing each other.

Although a lot of killing and suffering happened in the past (and some still happening now), "Thou shalt not kill" is a main law of Judaeo-Christian beliefs, and statistically, the amount of religiously motivated killing has dropped proportionally among the billions that populate the world today.

Sources:
The world population during the Crusades for example was in the quarter billion range: http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldhis.html

And there were a half million killed in the Crusades, so percentage wise about 0.2 percent:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

Now the world population is over 6.5 billion:
http://www.un.org/esa/population/pub...ixbilpart1.pdf

But deaths in the 20th century due to religious reasons are insignificant except for one obvious slaughter: the Holocaust, six million Jews murdered.
WWII raised the percentage to 8 percent, the Jewish losses account for 0.24 percent. Without the Holocaust the percentage would have been insignificant.

[MollyMac]

Simply, you cannot argue faith with logic. Having faith itself is a leap over something undefinable. If you cannot grasp that emotions and logic are completely unrelated, then you will stroke out.

It is like trying to argue Jabberwocky with Pythagoras.

But frankly I do not see why it is so important for a logician and athiest to win converts. Need safety in numbers or is it new convert syndrome?

[Bat Attack]

Originally Posted by tekajo

Here's what i'd like to know.

Why was this question posed...yet again?

It seems to me not very long ago Jillian was on the verge of an aneurysm because of this very same subject.

And even then it wasn't the first time it was asked. If one really wanted to read the opinions of each differing side, one could easily just searched this forum.

This loaded question is asked repeatedly for one reason and one reason only.

Two sides futily "arguing". One with faith one with logic. One with logic finally throwing his hands up in disgust and calling everyone stupid.

i don't see the point in it all.

Don’t complain about this thread, it’s already got 126 posts, and it hasn’t even been a day, it’s clearly a successful thread.
I did in fact search this forum, and found similar arguments, but not exactly what I was looking for. Also I wanted to discuss the topic. Another reason I posted the thread, was partly because I thought to myself yesterday, “Am I an atheist? And if I am, do I know why?”

[Man In Room 5]

Really you can't argue the existence of God at all since God can't be defined. You are basically trying to prove the existence of something you can't define. "I don't understand it myself and can't explain it, but I know it's real" just isn't very convincing.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Man In Room 5

Really you can't argue the existence of God at all since God can't be defined. You are basically trying to prove the existence of something you can't define. "I don't understand it myself and can't explain it, but I know it's real" just isn't very convincing.

Who said anything about trying to convince anyone? I don't know for a fact that its real at all, I'm trying to figure that out, and I think I'll know it when I see it, I'll let you know when I know for sure.

[Necrophagist]

God IS defined is an omnipotent, supernatural being so...

[Scrumptious Bitch]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

SB, Jillian has more education than some teachers I know. He is qualified to be a teacher, and he does teach people in these forums. Read carefully what he says, he is teaching reason and logic. He has taught politics, he has taught sociology, literature and philosophy. He is an asset to this community. And please learn when to use "their" and "they're". Reading books will help you to learn when.



In the case of Christianity He has, but only some believed Him.

You can only be qualified to be a teacher if you have teaching qualifications. He is not teaching reason and logic, he is twisting it around to serve his argument. Anyone and everyone does that and can easily call it logic. Most evil regimes twist logic and make their arguments seem rational and reasonable. all i am saying is that no one knows. although i dont personally believe in god i do know that this argument will go on forever and no one will ever be able to give any conclusive proof to back up either side. i do not think he would be a good teacher either because he just loses his temper and acts like a angry grouch all the time.

and commenting on my spelling and telling me to read books is just a cheap ass way to try and insult me and not take my point into consideration.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Scrumptious Bitch

You can only be qualified to be a teacher if you have teaching qualifications. He is not teaching reason and logic, he is twisting it around to serve his argument. Anyone and everyone does that and can easily call it logic. Most evil regimes twist logic and make their arguments seem rational and reasonable. all i am saying is that no one knows. although i dont personally believe in god i do know that this argument will go on forever and no one will ever be able to give any conclusive proof to back up either side. i do not think he would be a good teacher either because he just loses his temper and acts like a angry grouch all the time.

and commenting on my spelling and telling me to read books is just a cheap ass way to try and insult me and not take my point into consideration.

So because I do not have teaching credentials I cannot teach my grandson toilet training? That is the context I intended. People can learn from each other regardless of teaching credentials. I was taught how to play guitar by someone without teaching credentials. It is the same with Jillian. Unless of course you wish to use the lack thereof to discount what someone says so you don't have to debate a point.

[Scrumptious Bitch]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

So because I do not have teaching credentials I cannot teach my grandson toilet training? That is the context I intended. People can learn from each other regardless of teaching credentials. I was taught how to play guitar by someone without teaching credentials. It is the same with Jillian. Unless of course you wish to use the lack thereof to discount what someone says so you don't have to debate a point.

he wasn't teaching he was simply presenting his argument on the non existence of god and then trying to declare to everyone "it is logic, you cannot go against logic".

that is not teaching. that is a childish way to debate because debating is not about winning it is about discussing eachothers views and letting people reach their own conclusion. jillian tried to bully people into his point of view by saying that if they didnt accept his views they were idiots. that is not debate that is just immaturity.

remember they are his views and the views of other people. he did not teach anyone about logic, and sayas taught us all what logic was more than someone who just used the word to try and put a "end of discussion" stance to try and win.

[Necrophagist]

I'm sure ETS and Helpmann both said the same thing a few times as well.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by MollyMac

Simply, you cannot argue faith with logic.

That does not excuse you from using a logical fallacy for trying to argue.
If you say, I believe God exists, fine.
But if you try to say "there's no evidence that he doesn't, therefore he does" then you are trying to use a wrong form of logic, and you're doing it wrong! So it's hypocritical that all of you kept saying this trying to have a 'logical' argument, and then when I tell you it's wrong, you say that logic doesn't matter.

[tekajo]

Originally Posted by Bat Attack

Don’t complain about this thread, it’s already got 126 posts, and it hasn’t even been a day, it’s clearly a successful thread.
I did in fact search this forum, and found similar arguments, but not exactly what I was looking for. Also I wanted to discuss the topic. Another reason I posted the thread, was partly because I thought to myself yesterday, “Am I an atheist? And if I am, do I know why?”

Fair enough.
Have you come up with any answers yet?

[Steppenwolf]

Sure
Here are THE answers
1- God is invisible , cannot be proved by science (by now) .
2- Faith is beyond science or logic .
3- Non believers follow science and logic , Believers follow faith .
4- Nb and B have all good/bad reasons to chose its own .
5- Therefore , everyone is free to argue , believe or don't believe .
(6- I don't believe in "God" , but respect others choice as long as they don't yell at me I'll burn in hell forever) .

[Eclipsing the Son]

I like how people like Jillian claim to be so much more logical and humane than religious followers and then spout off intolerant bullshit like "Religion should be abolished!" and "People of faith are irredeemably stupid!". Fucking hypocrites.

[Godslayer Jillian]

If you think a desire for the end of religion is for some reason not logic, you are, as you said "irredeemably stupid"

[Eclipsing the Son]

It's no more logical than the ideal to kill off anarchistic rebels the way a fascist government would. If it weren't for the compassionate side of the religious background in the country you live in, the kind of political stance you take would be punishable by death.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Eclipsing the Son

It's no more logical than the ideal to kill off anarchistic rebels the way a fascist government would.

That is perfectly logical. You're just idiotically using a word, disregarding its actual meaning, to try to see if it works as a rhetorical weapon. Very poor job.

[Eclipsing the Son]

I wouldn't be the first to point out your own bastardization of the term 'logic'.

So I won't bother.

You're nothing but an ungrateful cynic who thinks that no good can come from wishful thinking. You fail to see the benefits of a positive outlook for your fellow man and his imagination. In an anarchist government you would be the first to die for you unwillingness to work together with your lawless comrades. You are thankless and impossible to please.

Logic without imagination is just as dangerous as imagination without logic.

[Sir. Helpmann]

HOW TO DEBATE GODSLAYER JILLIAN STYLE:

1. Try to bluff your opponent.

If he or she has answered several of your question without the answers turning out in favor of your conclusion, advance your conclusion triumphantly, even if it does not follow. If your opponent is shy or stupid, and you yourself possess a great deal of impudence and a good voice, the technique may succeed.

2. You may also puzzle and bewilder your opponent by mere bombast.
If your opponent is weak or does not wish to appear as if he has no idea what your are talking about, you can easily impose upon him some argument that sounds very deep or learned, or that sounds indisputable.

3. Become personal, insulting and rude as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand. In becoming personal you leave the subject altogether, and turn your attack on the person by remarks of an offensive and spiteful character. This is a very popular technique, because it takes so little skill to put it into effect.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Eclipsing the Son

You're nothing but an ungrateful cynic who thinks that no good can come from wishful thinking. You fail to see the benefits of a positive outlook for your fellow man and his imagination.

Not at all. If they say they need a god, I back down, but I still consider it weak.

This whole fight has been because they say that logic has nothing to do with god, and I'm calling out on their bullshit because they tried to use logic by saying "there's no evidence that he doesn't exist, therefore he could exist."
I am not going to let them go on something they said just because it's proven wrong. Didn't you have that same problem with someone else? Someone pretending they don't care about a thread only after their defense was exhausted?

[Sir. Helpmann]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Not at all. If they say they need a god, I back down, but I still consider it weak.

This whole fight has been because they say that logic has nothing to do with god, and I'm calling out on their bullshit because they tried to use logic by saying "there's no evidence that he doesn't exist, therefore he could exist."
I am not going to let them go on something they said just because it's proven wrong. Didn't you have that same problem with someone else? Someone pretending they don't care about a thread only after their defense was exhausted?

AHEM:

HOW TO DEBATE GODSLAYER JILLIAN STYLE:

You may also puzzle and bewilder your opponent by mere bombast.
If your opponent is weak or does not wish to appear as if he has no idea what your are talking about, you can easily impose upon him some argument that sounds very deep or learned, or that sounds indisputable.

[Eclipsing the Son]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Not at all. If they say they need a god, I back down, but I still consider it weak.

Can you tell me how a belief in god makes somebody weak? Am I to believe you are completely self sufficient and are not under the help and care of another person or persons in any way shape or form and never have been in the past? Can you safely tell me without doubt that none of these persons you garner support from believe in God? Can you tell me with full conviction that you have not drawn benefit from somebody who would not claim to have drawn benefit from their belief in god?

Sometimes recognizing your own weaknesses is a strength.

How exactly does belief in god contribute to weakness?

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Eclipsing the Son

Can you tell me how a belief in god makes somebody weak? Am I to believe you are completely self sufficient and are not under the help and care of another person or persons in any way shape or form and never have been in the past? Can you safely tell me without doubt that none of these persons you garner support from believe in God? Can you tell me with full conviction that you have not drawn benefit from somebody who would not claim to have drawn benefit from their belief in god?

Sometimes recognizing your own weaknesses is a strength.

How exactly does belief in god contribute to weakness?

I believe it is invariably weakness because you try to appeal to an eternal authority as an end, rather than a means. As I said before, believing in the existence of God justifies coercive authority as something we must be subordinate to despite its practical uses.
And this, I'm actually willing to argue nicely with you, because this is in fact only my opinion.
But if we're talking about this now, I assume that you already understood the whole fight above was because they decided to scoff on logic only after their 'use' of it was proven false.

[Sir. Helpmann]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I believe it is invariably weakness because you try to appeal to an eternal authority as an end, rather than a means. As I said before, believing in the existence of God justifies coercive authority as something we must be subordinate to despite its practical uses.
And this, I'm actually willing to argue nicely with you, because this is in fact only my opinion.
But if we're talking about this now, I assume that you already understood the whole fight above was because they decided to scoff on logic only after their 'use' of it was proven false.

Anarchism is by it's very nature illogical.

Go back to school - you haven't even lived or paid taxes.

[Trolling the Trolls]

Kelpman IzA Butt Slut!!

__________________
I am the shadow on the moon at night
Filling your dreams to the brim with fright.

I made $hade Cry and I made Sanguine Mind leave