Atheist group sues over proposed cross at 9/11 memorial

CptSternn · 07-30-2011, 05:58 AM

Quote:

The group American Atheists and four New Yorkers are suing the states of New York and New Jersey for planning to place a cross--a piece of debris from the World Trade Center--at the 9-11 memorial for the attacks' victims.

The planned memorial--which will at long last be unveiled this September--has received millions in federal money. The Courthouse News Service says the cross--"a T-joint steel girder found in the rubble of the World Trade Center"--was just last week moved from a Catholic church to Ground Zero. The suit says the cross is an insult to the many 9/11 victims who were not Christian and a violation of the separation of church and state; it proposes either removing the cross or setting aside an equal amount of space at the memorial to honor the sacrifices on non-Christian or non-religious victims of the attack.

Two Jewish plaintiffs said they find the cross "offensive and repugnant to their beliefs." The brother of a first responder who died of lung problems after volunteering at Ground Zero for two weeks is also a plaintiff.

"As a survivor of the 9/11 attack and family member of one of the brave responders to the 9/11 attack, Mark Panzarino is appalled that the state has permitted a symbol of Christianity to represent a tragedy that affected all Americans. The Panzarinos unequivocally do not wish for a cross to represent Frank Joseph Panzarino's sacrifice unless it is a Lutheran Cross," he said in the complaint. (A Lutheran cross features a rose-shaped inlay that, in turn, showcases another crucifix; the plaintiffs evidently singled it out to make the point that any such choice of a Christian symbol excludes someone else's belief.)

Secular-minded advocacy has echoed the gist of the Panzarinos' complaint. "The WTC cross has become a Christian icon. It has been blessed by so-called holy men and presented as a reminder that their god, who couldn't be bothered to stop the Muslim terrorists or prevent 3,000 people from being killed in his name, cared only enough to bestow upon us some rubble that resembles a cross," American Atheists President David Silverman said in a statement. "It's a truly ridiculous assertion."

"We are happy to donate a suitable and respectful display and pay all associated costs, and we won't stand idly by while atheists and their families are discounted. We seek only fairness," Silverman wrote on his blog.

The American Center for Law and Justice, a conservative Christian legal advocacy group, said that it intends to file an amicus brief backing the placement of the cross at the memorial. "This lawsuit is deeply flawed and without merit. This is just the latest chapter of an anti-God strategy employed by atheist organizations across the country--a strategy offensive to millions of Americans, a strategy that we're confident ultimately will fail in court," chief counsel Jay Sekulow said.

CptSternn · 07-30-2011, 06:00 AM

Isn't it ironic the same people who were outraged about the Muslim community centre near ground zero are perplexed as to why people of other religions would take offence to building a Christian memorial on top of their loved ones remains.

Grausamkeit · 07-30-2011, 07:55 AM

It's not ironic it's stupid. One religious view shouldn't be held above all others regardless of what the founding fathers believed.

AshleyO · 07-30-2011, 09:41 AM

What I would like to know is why in the blue hell did the people that proposed this monument think they could get away with this or that it was okay?

Ugh. The fucking NERVE of Christianity. At least Muslims had enough sense to not do this kind of shit by putting their religious centers on ground zero.

To think that this is the best our world has come up with. To think that shit like this actually has to matter and we actually at one time had to make it very clear that there would be a divide between church and state.

FML...

HumanePain · 07-30-2011, 10:52 AM

Right you are, because the remains of that building get in the way of protecting the Stars and Bars or Swastikas from being displayed. Not ironic at all.

AshleyO · 07-30-2011, 11:01 AM

What the hell are you talking about?

You know what? Turn it into a park.

They could call it 9/11 Park or Freedom Park.

No special monuments.

No special consideration for any one belief or ideology.

Just a public place that people can share and use.

Grausamkeit · 07-30-2011, 11:29 AM

That makes the most sense, to me. ^

CptSternn · 07-30-2011, 12:35 PM

No, it is America. Thats why the bottom floor is going to be a reflecting pool and park area, then the next layer a museum and the of course like four stories of shopping and then office space for multi-national corporations.

It pretty much makes up the America sandwich as it exists in society today. Lots of corporate interests with a dash of Christianity thrown in to appear like they give a shite about something other than money.

Absent Soul · 07-30-2011, 02:39 PM

i think its just a kick in the nuggets having a cross there. bringing religion into stuff like that is gonna cause arguements.

Despanan · 07-30-2011, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grausamkeit

It's not ironic it's stupid. One religious view shouldn't be held above all others regardless of what the founding fathers believed.

The founding fathers were deists. Basically the atheists of their day.

AshleyO · 08-02-2011, 01:12 AM

It's comforting to know that while God obviously can't save lives very well, he's REALLY fucking good at creating monuments that glorifies himself.

CptSternn · 08-02-2011, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshleyO

It's comforting to know that while God obviously can't save lives very well, he's REALLY fucking good at creating monuments that glorifies himself.

Thats a very narrow, selected view of things sure.

AshleyO · 08-02-2011, 05:29 AM

Oops, my bad. I forgot that it was just an innocent little faux pas that those silly Christians do all the time because let's be real, every human being on this planet is some kind of Christian in one way or another. People like me, damn, we're just the mistaken and mad for no reason kind of Christians who haven't quite gotten with the program yet. They didn't mean any harm by trying to make a Christian monument on ground zero.

The cross represents EVERYONE obviously. Shit. Where are my manners? I'm sorry.

ape descendant · 08-02-2011, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

No, it is America. Thats why the bottom floor is going to be a reflecting pool and park area, then the next layer a museum and the of course like four stories of shopping and then office space for multi-national corporations.

It pretty much makes up the America sandwich as it exists in society today. Lots of corporate interests with a dash of Christianity thrown in to appear like they give a shite about something other than money.

I read "reflecting pool and shark area", perhaps the America sandwich is just making me hungry, I sure hope its got beef in it.

Despanan · 08-02-2011, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Thats a very narrow, selected view of things sure.

It also happens to be a correct one. God totally could have magicked everyone in those towers to safety, instead he made a rafter fall in such a way that it reminded people of him.

What a fucking cunt.

Renatus · 08-02-2011, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despanan

It also happens to be a correct one. God totally could have magicked everyone in those towers to safety, instead he made a rafter fall in such a way that it reminded people of him.

What a fucking cunt.

There a great episode of Futurama that actually makes a great point about god. http://www.megavideo.com/?d=82EWNS0I

CptSternn · 08-03-2011, 12:29 AM

I enjoyed that episode of Futurama, and it emphasised my point.

To further extrapolate along those lines, you also have to consider this - everything in history and time itself is intertwined. Like the idea of the butterfly effect. It was derived from the idea monarch butterflies migrating in South America could actually effect weather patterns on the other side of the world. Studies have shown this to be true. Therefore even one butterfly flying anywhere in the world has some effect on all of the weather patterns elsewhere, even if it is so minute you cannot properly quantify the effect.

To be more to the point, if someone dies, no matter how bad or painful the event is it will have long term and long ranging effects throughout time. For example, lets say someones child dies of cancer. It is a horrible thing, but then at the funeral dozens of relatives who have not seen each other come together for the first time in years. Maybe then one decides not to commit suicide because of this event and another gets help for some mental affliction they were previously apprehensive about. This is just a broad generalised example, but the point is one negative event can lead to dozens of positives events.

It's like one big web, or intertwined threads of fate, all of which have direct consequences for future events. We as humans have no concept of this and cannot see the big picture as it would be well outside of our comprehension.

So yes, it may seem bad, but sure, bad things need to happen to spur good things in the future, a bit of an over simplified concept of the same idea.

Or to over simplify it even more as Butthead (of the famous TV duo) put it, some things have to suck so you know what is cool.

Despanan · 08-03-2011, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renatus

There a great episode of Futurama that actually makes a great point about god. http://www.megavideo.com/?d=82EWNS0I

No it doesn't. I've seen that episode. It's your basic Christian apologism.

Don't you find it convenient that the god of the Bible, who was all about killing and fucking up non-believers and smiting the wicked and testing his followers, suddenly becomes some wise, passive, non-intervening "People won't know you've done anything at all" watchmaker in the modern day?

Don't you think it's MASSIVELY convenient that it's impossible for us to determine divine intervention and effectively insulates god from any sort of test to prove or disprove his existence? (Yet people still know what He wants, and need you to send them your money and vote the way they tell you to and sometimes hurt and kill others for him).

If God magicked that cross, he's an evil cunt. If god makes your life just a little bit better while he allows a family to be gunned down and beheaded in Jaurez, he's an evil cunt. If god engineered a world where belief in him is infinitely rewarded and anything else is infinitely punished, he's an evil cunt.

The normative Christian view of God expressed in that episode is morally and philosophically bankrupt, but also romanticized to the point that it strikes an emotional chord with a viewer already conditioned through years of indoctrination to believe in a divine parent figure.

Use your head.

AshleyO · 08-03-2011, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I enjoyed that episode of Futurama, and it emphasised my point.

If it does, your point is dumb.

Quote:

To further extrapolate along those lines, you also have to consider this - everything in history and time itself is intertwined. Like the idea of the butterfly effect. It was derived from the idea monarch butterflies migrating in South America could actually effect weather patterns on the other side of the world. Studies have shown this to be true. Therefore even one butterfly flying anywhere in the world has some effect on all of the weather patterns elsewhere, even if it is so minute you cannot properly quantify the effect.

How do we put god into this equation when you can't empirically prove he's real? If you throw him in there, that's just bad science.

Quote:

To be more to the point, if someone dies, no matter how bad or painful the event is it will have long term and long ranging effects throughout time. For example, lets say someones child dies of cancer. It is a horrible thing, but then at the funeral dozens of relatives who have not seen each other come together for the first time in years. Maybe then one decides not to commit suicide because of this event and another gets help for some mental affliction they were previously apprehensive about. This is just a broad generalised example, but the point is one negative event can lead to dozens of positives events.

Or you know, the reverse could happen. Where the dead cancer baby pushes that suicidal chap over the edge and kills himself, the daughter who hasn't talked to her dad in years is painfully reminded as to why she doesn't, and that mental affliction person ends up thinking that religion is a viable solution to their dementia. Sternn, why the fuck are you looking at cause and effect with rose tinted glasses?

Quote:

It's like one big web, or intertwined threads of fate, all of which have direct consequences for future events. We as humans have no concept of this and cannot see the big picture as it would be well outside of our comprehension.

It's not outside our comprehension if you're talking about this as if it's a scientific absolute. It's not conclusive evidence for... god and it's unscientific to assume god when you have no conclusive evidence for the entity.

Quote:

So yes, it may seem bad, but sure, bad things need to happen to spur good things in the future, a bit of an over simplified concept of the same idea.

Then show us where god is part of your equation in this. Why is it necessary for your science that god is a solution?

Quote:

Or to over simplify it even more as Butthead (of the famous TV duo) put it, some things have to suck so you know what is cool.

Yeah, but you're not really talking about that.

Again, read Despanan's post. If god had anything to do with this, he's an evil cunt.

Alan · 08-03-2011, 11:29 AM

Boy oh boy, I can't wait until we discover why the Holocaust and the Armenian and Rwandan genocides were totally justified in God's plan.

Renatus · 08-03-2011, 11:45 AM

What I don't really understand is why religion keeps getting brought up here, our two sides will never agree on the subject, and even if there was only one side, all it would be is a bunch of ego stroking/patting each other on the back for having similar opinions. There's nothing really to be discussed.

Maybe if it were a discussion of the religious cultures then we might have a point of discussion, but as long as the faith itself is brought up then this will get nowhere.

CptSternn · 08-04-2011, 12:08 AM

Isn't it ironic that those who found the above article troublesome because it was about a group trying to force it's views down the throats of society was met by an equal force here of people doing the exact same thing, in reverse?

I find the actions of the group trying to put religion in the 9/11 memorial appalling, even though I am a Catholic. Then again, I find it equally as appalling when people try and ram their views, whatever they may be, down my throat in the same way, much like the posts above.

'Outraged' when someone does something to offend your views, yet ye are here doing the exact same thing to a person with different views.

Alan · 08-04-2011, 01:05 AM

What is ironic is that you use the "don't shove your ideas down my throat" bullshit conversation stopper when you're the single most vociferous ideologue by thread count.
In here, people responded to YOUR assertion that they're narrow. Isn't it a part of YOUR views that they're narrow? Why are you pushing something they don't want?

Still Jack · 08-04-2011, 04:49 AM

I really don't see what the fucking problem is. For me it's just a cross. It's not as if someone had put a massive cock on it or something. I mean, I can see why people are getting pissed off about it, but I really think it's childish from both perspectives. It's like kids bickering over a toy .

Despanan · 08-04-2011, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Isn't it ironic that those who found the above article troublesome because it was about a group trying to force it's views down the throats of society was met by an equal force here of people doing the exact same thing, in reverse?

I find the actions of the group trying to put religion in the 9/11 memorial appalling, even though I am a Catholic. Then again, I find it equally as appalling when people try and ram their views, whatever they may be, down my throat in the same way, much like the posts above.

'Outraged' when someone does something to offend your views, yet ye are here doing the exact same thing to a person with different views.

The fact that you think this is about "ramming ideas down throats" shows you don't understand this issue Sterrn.

This isn't about offense, or lapses in politeness, or forcing their religion or lack thereof on others; it's about what is equitable.

That cross isn't going to force anyone to be a Christian, but it is a HUGE indicator that "America is a CHRISTIAN nation" and planting that like a flag on Ground zero, especially after the "Mosque at ground zero" incident sends a very distinct "us vs them" message. It's existence at the site allows Christians to claim 9-11 for them and their god to the exclusion of everyone else.

If this was about people "Forcing their beliefs down your throats" the group wouldn't have included equal time for other religious displays as an option in the lawsuit. Then we can at least have a fair and equal dialogue. (Kinda like we're having now, except your arguments suck).

Either remove ALL religious relics and symbols from the monument, or make equal room for every single belief and lack thereof. That's only fair.