americans

[ArtificialOne]

Yes, lets try and take the sides of the "less fortunate" instead of calling them fellow citizens with the same rights to take care of themselves and pave their own way.

Do you want to know why most x mil and police think it's bad to help people like that. You learn self respect and that "YOU" are the only one that can help yourself. Not some overworked govt worker who doesn't know you. Govt. Programs have a long history of failure to help people.. IE wellfare and such. We survived for thousands of years without it? It's just another way for the left to gain power and control every single aspect of a persons life.

Govt wellfare has never worked in the history of man! And if someone doesn't know the value of budgeting and buying groceries instead of eating out all the time how's that my fault or responsibility?

If you give something away for free why should people want to work and contribute to the local culture and society? That's a proven fact. That's why most on wellfare stay on it indefinately.

So what if I'm a flag waver. At least I believe and have pride in something other than an overblown self righteous ego like yours stern.

You are nothing but a left wing troll and propagandist. Your like comes and goes like sand blowing on a beach.

You still have never proven any wellfare programs that have transformed entire urban areas or anything. My ideals are tested with thousands of years of societal growth. What ideals? Strong family, good teaching and self responisibilty. I'm sorry if being responisible for ones self offends you stern, but get over it.

And btw, you are now ignored due to your tasteless propagandizing on the va tech thread.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by mrs.wes straker

Ya, that's not too cool. America is great and there are a lot of great people here. Sure it's a democracy, but let's be realistic. We don't really have too much control over what our government does. Our voting, protesting, kicking and screaming hasn't stopped the Bush admin from doing what they want. But they have apologized. (Big whoop). Sternn you make good contributions and such so I personally don't have a problem w/ you, but America has be taken good w/ the bad, like any other place. You know?

This is true, and inevitably in every thread where one criticizes some aspect of America, the person is labelled 'anti-american'. This trend has been fueled even more with the bush administrations pre-war run-up where they called everyone who was against the war anti-american, unpatriotic, and many other names.

How is it pointing out the weaknesses within a government makes you 'anti-what-ever-government'?

If a company brings in an outside auditor to find weaknesses in their structure that can be fixed to increase profits and reduce the workload of employees, they are deemed heros. When someone takes an outside look at the current American system of government, they are deemed America haters.

I never said I hate anything or anyone. I merely point out short comings, contridictions, and places where improvement can be made. The current U.S. mentality is to attack anyone who does this, why? Because the current administration doesn't like people to mess with their status quo.

Hell, if America was more on the ball half the world wouldn't have a problem with their actions in Iraq or anywhere else.

The thing is, with the education system failing, the social system failing, the U.S. trailing behind every 1st world country in every conciveable way, it makes people uneasy when they try and 'spead' their way of life across the world.

Once America moves forward like the rest of the 1st world and eliminates things like poverty, homelessness, and other social aspects, THEN people might not be so worried when they do go out trying to setup new nations.

However, those aspects of society in America will never change as long as the people there rally against any change, positive or negative, because they have been taught to fear the idea of change, and attack anyone who suggests change as some sort of anti-american.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by republigoth

Oh, wait, you mean 'helping and contributing' in a socialist fashion only counts if it's ineffective and of microscopic scale? Dang. Guess this evil heartless killing machine of a republican will have to go back to making my donations in a way that creates an entire richer system instead of one richer individual. I'm such a monster. We should all build a collective and force those single mothers to starve through the collective's limp impotence

One could call it limp impotence, however, if you look at the EU nations which have all setup socialist based systems within each member state, they have eliminated poverty in most nations, and the nations where poverty does exist are rapidly improving to the point where it will be eliminated in our lifetime.

I can say from the Irish perspective, we have eliminated poverty for the most part, and it has increased the benefits to our society as a whole.

We have no homeless people (outside of the illegals in Dublin city, which are being dealt with), we have no 'bad' areas or schools that require students to move to another district as they are so bad - by increasing the ways and means for everyone, we have eliminated poverty stricken areas.

Hm. Don't know. I'll have to ask my fellow soldiers why they exist only to kill people they don't like as we hand out water bottles and build schools in Iraq.

Becoming a soldier has the inherent duty of taking a life. It comes with the job description, and is not something they just spring on you later. Those that join the military instead of a charity group or say the peace corps join because of this reason, not because they want to go out and help people in other nations. This does not mean other actions don't take place during their tours of duty, but it DOES mean that their main mission is a destructive one, not a constructive one.

[mrs.wes straker]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

This is true, and inevitably in every thread where one criticizes some aspect of America, the person is labelled 'anti-american'. This trend has been fueled even more with the bush administrations pre-war run-up where they called everyone who was against the war anti-american, unpatriotic, and many other names.

How is it pointing out the weaknesses within a government makes you 'anti-what-ever-government'?

If a company brings in an outside auditor to find weaknesses in their structure that can be fixed to increase profits and reduce the workload of employees, they are deemed heros. When someone takes an outside look at the current American system of government, they are deemed America haters.

I never said I hate anything or anyone. I merely point out short comings, contridictions, and places where improvement can be made. The current U.S. mentality is to attack anyone who does this, why? Because the current administration doesn't like people to mess with their status quo.

Hell, if America was more on the ball half the world wouldn't have a problem with their actions in Iraq or anywhere else.

The thing is, with the education system failing, the social system failing, the U.S. trailing behind every 1st world country in every conciveable way, it makes people uneasy when they try and 'spead' their way of life across the world.

Once America moves forward like the rest of the 1st world and eliminates things like poverty, homelessness, and other social aspects, THEN people might not be so worried when they do go out trying to setup new nations.

However, those aspects of society in America will never change as long as the people there rally against any change, positive or negative, because they have been taught to fear the idea of change, and attack anyone who suggests change as some sort of anti-american.

I don't anyone here cares about the Bush administration. People love thier countries, that's al. Not that I do, but some take the statements against their country personally. The thread name is Americans, not The Horrible American Government.

[mrs.wes straker]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

This is true, and inevitably in every thread where one criticizes some aspect of America, the person is labelled 'anti-american'. This trend has been fueled even more with the bush administrations pre-war run-up where they called everyone who was against the war anti-american, unpatriotic, and many other names.

How is it pointing out the weaknesses within a government makes you 'anti-what-ever-government'?

If a company brings in an outside auditor to find weaknesses in their structure that can be fixed to increase profits and reduce the workload of employees, they are deemed heros. When someone takes an outside look at the current American system of government, they are deemed America haters.

I never said I hate anything or anyone. I merely point out short comings, contridictions, and places where improvement can be made. The current U.S. mentality is to attack anyone who does this, why? Because the current administration doesn't like people to mess with their status quo.

Hell, if America was more on the ball half the world wouldn't have a problem with their actions in Iraq or anywhere else.

The thing is, with the education system failing, the social system failing, the U.S. trailing behind every 1st world country in every conciveable way, it makes people uneasy when they try and 'spead' their way of life across the world.

Once America moves forward like the rest of the 1st world and eliminates things like poverty, homelessness, and other social aspects, THEN people might not be so worried when they do go out trying to setup new nations.

However, those aspects of society in America will never change as long as the people there rally against any change, positive or negative, because they have been taught to fear the idea of change, and attack anyone who suggests change as some sort of anti-american.

I don't think anyone here cares about the Bush administration. People love their countries, that's all. The rest of the first world has NOT eliminated totally any of their social issues. They have very grave issues, just like America. Look at Britain, for example. What about France? Anyhow, poverty seems to be a main complaint here. You will love my opinion on poverty. Especially, being an American, and I'm only speak of life in America; but people impovish themselves. Everyone here has the opportunity to join the middle class, and that in itself would solve a lot of issues, because poverty is the root cause if many crimes, education deficits, etc. People have to help themselves.

[mrs.wes straker]

Oh and sorry about the double post. Something's wrong w/ my computer and it went took too long to post before I could edit it.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by mrs.wes straker

The rest of the first world has NOT eliminated totally any of their social issues.

I agree, there are problems in every country, everywhere. I'm not saying there are not. What I do argue though is the problems in other places are much more manageable, and are being actively worked on, where as certain issues in America are ignored, or when mentioned, the messenger is attacked - therefore insuring that the issue will get much worse before it gets better.

You will love my opinion on poverty. Especially, being an American, and I'm only speak of life in America; but people impovish themselves. Everyone here has the opportunity to join the middle class, and that in itself would solve a lot of issues, because poverty is the root cause if many crimes, education deficits, etc. People have to help themselves.

I also agree with you there, as far as poverty being the leading cause of most of the issues in America. That being said I strongly disagree with the statement people can 'join the middle class'. I posted some articles a few pages back in this thread (I can find them if you want) that show since 1980, the whole idea of the 'American Dream' is no longer valid. Those from poverty stricken backgrounds tend to stay there, and their children do as well. In fact, a study this year (also a few pages back) showed that starting with the last generation, children in America are actually doing worse than their parents - a trend that has started and is getting worse. For example, most children now will not own a home if their parents did. Now thats not EVERYONE, but a larger number than the generation before, meaning as a whole, the nation is moving towards poverty and is not bettering itself - like it did up until 1980 (until 1980 every generation moved ahead of the previous one - on average earning more than their parents).

Homeownership is a good way to judge this. With all the new forclosures which are now taking place, it seems to back up those statistics and further the point as children now can't afford homes in their current walks of life.

Also, back to your statement about working your way up. It's a great ideal, and for decades held true. Books by Alger and Dickens revealed in this idea and it inspired many to move to America because of such stories.

That being said todays world is different. An example one of my favourite Soc profs used to use, and he had in one of the books he wrote, was looking at a persons choices in life as a resturant menu. Those who are well off, from affluent families, have a broad range of things to choose from. The world really is open to them. They can only be hindered by personal bad choices.

That being said, a poor person, in a bad neighborhood also has options, however less. For them to move up and out of their poverty requires much more effort than a rich child. Education for the rich comes easy - where as those in poor areas may have to choose to work to feed their siblings, or may not be able to attend school due to the levels of violence. Also things like a sick parent that needs care can totally wipe out opportunity for a child in a impoverished household.

Discounting these facts and saying 'anyone' can do 'anything' is to not look at the whole picture. This is the problem with the views of many Americans today, they look at the situation from their point of view - never bothering to wonder how they would have had to change their lives if their parents became ill/passed on/went to prison or if they were just abandoned at an early age.

It's easy to say well, if that would have happened to me, I'm sure I would have gotten through it, but the reality is, you never know, since it didn't happen to you. To simply brush aside the idea that such trials and tribulations in someones life can have a hindering effect on the outcome of their future is to look at them as cattle, an animal if you will, without emotion or the ability to reason, rather than a human being.

[the-broken-harlequin]

This really has lasted too long.

[raggedyanne]

true, but human compassion fuels me to try and give stern some form of perception. It's not working.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by republigoth

Well we consumerist republicans are doing great then! I donate my ENTIRE income to the less well-to-do by purchasing goods and services that create jobs that allow them to feed their poor starving children. Yay for me. I should get an award for contributions to socialism.

What is this, the trickle down, up, left right and every witchway by magical osmosis theory?

Drake

[mrs.wes straker]

CP Sternn said....
....the whole idea of the 'American Dream' is no longer valid. Those from poverty stricken backgrounds tend to stay there, and their children do as well. In fact, a study this year (also a few pages back) showed that starting with the last generation, children in America are actually doing worse than their parents - a trend that has started and is getting worse.

This is because poverty is a mentality. A teenage girl from a broken home has a kid, then sixteen years later she duplicates the same scenario, and then it happens again with the next generation. Meanwhile, these mothers are never able to manage to hold it together with the fathers, they have no educations, they live in terrible neighborhoods, and because so many others in their environments do the same thing the standard seems to be acceptable or normal. There is always someone who manages to pull themselves away from the rut. For example, (and you did ask for examples of the American Dream, so here you have it) my father and mother were both raised in NYC housing projects and both managed to excel in life, through effort, of course. They have siblings with the same opportunities who are still in crime ridden ghettos. Said relatives have admitted that those places are their comfort zone and they refuse to leave. Nevermind the fact that their kids are affected by these places, they know what the consequences of living in those areas can be. They will not come out of their comfort zone.

As for myself, I was raised middle class and have not been to college. However, I have been able to move up in my place of employment and am making as much as some college grads. I am a homeowner, even with my administrative job and my husband's blue collar job. I know people in the same financial predicament as my husband and I that have nothing. It's not how much you make; it's what you do with it. Now I have to double post because the last time my I tried to submit a post that was very long my computer froze and I'm having to rewrite my reply.

[mrs.wes straker]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

.
Homeownership is a good way to judge this. With all the new forclosures which are now taking place, it seems to back up those statistics and further the point as children now can't afford homes in their current walks of life.

Wow, you shouldn't have said this. :-P Real estate is a huge interest of mine. The foreclosure rate isn't due to poverty. The record number of foreclosures is due to a much needed price correction that we are currently experiencing in our housing market. A couple of years ago, speculators realized that the demand for housing was going up. They decided they could get rich from buying up as many homes as they could by using non-conventional mortgage products, so that they could in turn flip the houses and make quick, enormous profits. These mortgage products, typically called ARM mortgages or interest only mortgages offer a teaser interest rate that is exceedingly low, and it enables purchasers to buy homes that would usually be way out of their reach. While the market was hot, this was not too risky because it was easy to rid yourself of inventory. When the market slowed, it became apparent that the hot market was false--it was being driven by these investors trying to buy up all the properties. Now they have no one to sell them to, and they are finding that they cannot sustain the mortgage payments for a very long time---especially once their teaser rate expires. Inability to make payments in this very common scenario is resulting in foreclosure. Prices are now being lowered in efforts to make sales. People that might've thought they were priced out are now finding they have options again. With our record low interest rates and a quite abundant inventory, this is a great time to buy a home. Any educated buyer would know it.

Knowing how to thrive anywhere is knowing how to work your system.

Moving forward, a quick note on homelessness. Do you realize how many homeless people are mentally ill, and you couldn't get them to stay off the streets if you tried? Some homeless openly admit to not wanting commitment. You can't fix able bodied folk who will not reform. People have to come to a point where they are held accountable for their own activity . For you to say that you cannot excel in our country if you try and strive is absurd. The studies you're referring to are showing you stats, but are they showing you how lazy many have become?

[mrs.wes straker]

Originally Posted by Bloopie

*Concurs with above poster*

I worked at a seedy mortgage company that pretty much did the same thing...we'd scam people all the time. I quit, it was totally dishonest and I couldn't agree with it ethically even if it payed a lot.

So many of those mortgages are fradulent; improperly disclosed, and downright scandalous. My dad has attorney review he was offered. It was unreal.

[raggedyanne]

It's crazy what some people will do for money

[MollyMac]

It's crazier that many don't care about the long term and will sign anyway.

[Nike]

Originally Posted by mrs.wes straker

Moving forward, a quick note on homelessness. Do you realize how many homeless people are mentally ill, and you couldn't get them to stay off the streets if you tried? Some homeless openly admit to not wanting commitment. You can't fix able bodied folk who will not reform. People have to come to a point where they are held accountable for their own activity . For you to say that you cannot excel in our country if you try and strive is absurd. The studies you're referring to are showing you stats, but are they showing you how lazy many have become?

Hi-ho everyone.

I agree with most you are saying, but not exactly in this point. While it is true, that a certain amount of homeless has some mental issues, practice shows, that a lot of them do find a way out of their situation when they get some help. From my eperience, social procets like "streetworking" and homes fo homeless may not achieve fairytail-wonder results, but the results they do achieve cannot be neglected.
Also, there is also an amount of homeless, that do try hard to get out of their situation. Often, this isn't very easy, though. Once you're really down, it takes a lot of courage, energy, and at some points help, to get up again.

What I am writing about, is maybe in the wrong thread, for it's not directed at Americans or even America at all .
I can only speak of the experience I've had in European countries I have lived in. And I actually do see a big difference in countries, that run some programs in that aspect and those, that are not (or that runs programs, that are obviously not very effective).

I don't have time to search for statistics, and to be honest, in that point, I don't care for statistics. I have spent quite some time with homeless people, ad I'm only talking about my own experience.

Now should I add something on topic? It's a miracle to me that this thread has survived so long. :-D

[mrs.wes straker]

Originally Posted by MollyMac

It's crazier that many don't care about the long term and will sign anyway.

The products were really for people who were flipping, which is no longer the business to be in.

Nike, with your post, too. Homelessness is a complicated subject.

[Drake Dun]

The homeless in Tokyo build these carefully designed, very clean portable cardboard homes and half the time they are clean themselves and do not stink. They scavenge tossed out manga and resell them on the street. They are very industrious, and the thing that would probably amaze Americans the most is that almost none of them ask for money or anything. The tiny segment of people who will ask you for money (it has happened to me perhaps three times in as many years) are dressed up all nice. That's how Japan works... nobody would give money to somebody who looks desperate, but the occasional person will give money to a nice clean-cut beggar. It is very bizarre, and very Japan.

The basic attitude of government toward the homeless is about the same, though. There is this really long, wide tunnel in Nishi-Shinjuku, right at the heart of Tokyo and near many fancy hotels and business towers. When I first came here about three years ago, there would always be a lot of homeless people camped out there at night, off to one side. They were never in the way. At some point the city installed what I call "anti-homeless bumps", which are exactly what they sound like... a bunch of concrete protrusions designed to make the area unusable for anything at all. So they have turned an area where the homeless were able to sleep warm and safe into an area which nobody can use for anything.

Out of sight, out of mind, eh?

Drake

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by mrs.wes straker

This is because poverty is a mentality. A teenage girl from a broken home has a kid, then sixteen years later she duplicates the same scenario, and then it happens again with the next generation. Meanwhile, these mothers are never able to manage to hold it together with the fathers, they have no educations, they live in terrible neighborhoods, and because so many others in their environments do the same thing the standard seems to be acceptable or normal. There is always someone who manages to pull themselves away from the rut.

Your example futhers my point perfectly. Poverty is not a 'mentality'. To argue that is to say people make a conscious choice to live in poverty. For many, there is no other option.

Furthering my point with your comment about 'pulling themselves from the rut', the exemplifies my previous arguement that some are born without such issues, and others are forced upon birth to fight to make it to the level of norm in society.

As I stated before, socialist countries equal the playing field so to speak. This puts everyone on the same level at birth. When a person works hard, they excel, but the leveled arena allows them to not first have to work their way out of poverty prior to excelling.

America is stacked against these persons. Yes, people do on occassion raise themsevles above their beginnings, but this is not the norm, and is not the trend, meaning for every one persons who does beat the odds, a dozen are left behind, therefore like you said also creating a new trend of holding back the next generation as well.

When the trend is to hold back the masses, its safe to say that the society is not benefiting the masses as much as it is hendering their ability to become productive.

[mrs.wes straker]

You are misinterpreting what I wrote to prove your point. It doesn't prove your point, it proves mine. It's obvious you have your ideas about what should be done to lift others up, but the truth is everyone must lift themselves up. Nor can you put everyone at the same level at birth. Cuba's done it, and it's done nothing but cripple the nation. Parents work to support their children. What I give my children is my gift to them, and if someone else doesn't think far ahead enough to do for their own, they'll have to answer for that. You are a sympathizer which is fine, but your are not thinking objectively. I feel bad for the less fortunate, but I have my own affairs to attend to. Do you know people from the ghettos like I've know them? Poverty is a mentality, and a culture. People do make concious choices to live that way, also. Some make the choices by following examples. Others have verbalized their choice, which you missed or failed to acknowledge from my last post. It is a mentality where people end up doing their own selves in by bad reasoning.

[mrs.wes straker]

Also,

1) Your failure to acknowledge much of the content in my posts and
2) After reading some of your other posts, I realize that you are the type of person who is very one sided, and will twist things around and even exaggerate to prove your correctness.

You'd not win in a court of law.

A government may try to hinder people, but ultimately, people have to succumb to bad choices to hinder themselves. Where is your sense of accountability on an individual level?

[ArtificialOne]

People think they have no say in govt becuase they don't try to have a say in it.

Was anyone paying attention in history or economics class...? Just becuase you vote every so often does not mean you get a big say.
You get a "Big say" if you go to your local legislature and participate. Go to meetings, votes, organize with your local party, etc.

People in all countries have become lazy and complacent in participating in local politics. Maybe it's the urbanization of the world?

And everyone keeps bringing up Bush this Bush that.. are you all deaf and blind to your local politics? How many of you even vote in local elections?

How many people heard San Francisco mayor decry his city to be a "Sanctuary" city? He said "No city officicial in any capacity shall take part in federal raids or turn in any illegal immigrant.." So a local govt official has said he would not uphold the laws of the country, and in fact refuses too. Not that sf has a large illegal population, but it's the princible of the matter. We have local govt people advocating breaking the law....

Am I the only one peeved about this? How many of you are in so cal right now? It's horrible... almost every sign is in spanish! Visalia and fresno are turning into slums... Why..? Becuase people think it's ok to let people break the law and willfully dissrespect the local culture. We need a good immigration bill that everyone will sign... and stop playing politics... If they want to have all the advantages of America they can pay taxes like the rest of us!

[Invisigoth69]

Originally Posted by mrs.wes straker

Also,

1) Your failure to acknowledge much of the content in my posts and
2) After reading some of your other posts, I realize that you are the type of person who is very one sided, and will twist things around and even exaggerate to prove your correctness.

You'd not win in a court of law.

A government may try to hinder people, but ultimately, people have to succumb to bad choices to hinder themselves. Where is your sense of accountability on an individual level?

Well, I am guessing you were responding to Mr. Stern.
I did not have time to go through this whole thread to see whether or not Stern was twisting anything except maybe a pretzel.... I don't know.
ANYWAY.... never mind all that....
Well, I am only going to say that you, Mrs. Straker, bring up a valid point.
I agree with the point you made that PEOPLE have to succumb to the bad choices they have made.

[mrs.wes straker]

Originally Posted by ArtificialOne

People in all countries have become lazy and complacent in participating in local politics. Maybe it's the urbanization of the world?


How many people heard San Francisco mayor decry his city to be a "Sanctuary" city? He said "No city officicial in any capacity shall take part in federal raids or turn in any illegal immigrant.." So a local govt official has said he would not uphold the laws of the country, and in fact refuses too. Not that sf has a large illegal population, but it's the princible of the matter. We have local govt people advocating breaking the law....

Am I the only one peeved about this? How many of you are in so cal right now?

Complaceny is a major problem with the public. We whine, we complain, and we do nothing. I am guilty of this myself.

And yes, I am peeved about idiots making statement such as the one mentioned above. They can't override the federal government's rules anyway. Morons.

[raggedyanne]

American society is built on the broken backs of illegal immigrants. The SF mayor's words ensure that everyone can have their clothes dry cleaned, food delivered, etc. I don't support his choices on that matter, but you have to realize that SF is a haven for many people who would be threatened, hurt, or killed for their beliefs and/or orientation. Sorry if I seem biased, it's a bay area thing