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Old 02-11-2013, 09:12 PM   #1276
Saya
 
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What about that shadowy place?
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:36 PM   #1277
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Religious stories are myths.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:54 PM   #1278
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Words are not used objectively and innocently, there is intention behind word use. Besides, not all Biblical stories are explicitly religious or totally religious. And by that definition, The Avengers is myth, The Lion King is a myth, Batwoman is a myth...it removes religious stories from their context, and renders the word a little bit useless.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:11 PM   #1279
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Some are in ways a historical account. Sure.

But you know... the parts where god has some sort of material agency in history as an actual being... that stuff is pretty mythological.

I understand what I'm saying too when I say religious stories are myths. Yes; it certainly does remove the stories from their hallowed pedestals. That's part of it though.

I don't think human beings will ever stop being superstitious though. But give a few generations and religions will contort to fit the mold of the modern zeitgeist. It's good to know that we're not subjects of myths and while religions will do what they do to survive (it seems to become more liberalized and individual; a permutation that's actually beneficial for skepticism), people wont forever be beholden to myths as a given. I'm sure that within a couple generations or so; skepticism will be the dominant world view and most people may look to the scriptures as moving poetry.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:38 PM   #1280
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What about that shadowy place?
That is eternal life. You must never go there.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:41 PM   #1281
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Don't worry. She wont.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:45 PM   #1282
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About your last post, I think that's kind of an odd thing to believe (that "skepticism" will be the dominant world view). Maybe in the west, it's possible. Maybe. But most people? Fuck no. Really, religious belief is not incongruent with the modern world.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:54 PM   #1283
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I don't think imperialism is going to necessarily end any time soon either. The world will get smaller and smaller as people move to and fro places they've never been. Even now, I don't think there's a religious belief on this planet that hasn't been faced with that terrible question of, "Can you prove it?" Hell, I don't even have to ask it myself, nor anyone else. EVERYONE asks that question at some point to themselves.

Give it easily 100 more years or more. EASILY. Skepticism isn't necessarily a written down competing dogma for the religious inclination. It's nothing more than simple doubt. Are you SURE even now that there is very little doubt in religion in other places than the west? People used to get killed for having doubt in the west... in droves. Not much seems to have changed since then. Doubt is EVERYWHERE and it's in every person.

Time is on the side of doubt. In all honesty, I expect religion to become more and more casual; not that it'll go away. Kind of like how socialism is basically inevitable. Capitalism can't and wont forever exist in the sense that we understand it. Some things change and some things get replaced.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:01 PM   #1284
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Some are in ways a historical account. Sure.

But you know... the parts where god has some sort of material agency in history as an actual being... that stuff is pretty mythological.
But that limits what religious stories are. Raelianism, for example, is a militant atheist religion that claims to value science and empiricism above all, and yes they are recognized as a religion by the US government and they receive the same tax breaks other churches get, there's no theist privilege there no matter how vocal they are about it. They even had a "God Is A Myth" bus campaign. But they, too, have religious stories, even if there is no god involved in them, believing aliens created us and have a higher purpose for us is still a religious idea.

The centrality of religion around a god is an ultimately ethnocentric/Christian centric view. Its a hegemonic Christian view that we were raised in, even though we may no longer be Christians, we think like Christian still. Its very much worth stepping back from preconceptions and trying to define religion on its own, in context of its diversity and pervasiveness, and without holding Christianity up as the religion that all others are defined by.

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I understand what I'm saying too when I say religious stories are myths. Yes; it certainly does remove the stories from their hallowed pedestals. That's part of it though.
I'm not sure you appreciate the diversity of religious narratives and what they encompass, though. And yes, I'm addressing that part, but its utilizing the kind of language that is often used to dismiss oppressed people and their cultures and religions, you know? Like, once I had a mythology book from the library where it was about World Mythology, and it was all about the mythology of tribal religions, without any cultural or historical context and its next to the shelf of ancient Greek mythology, which is gross. I'm not really good at articulating in a short precise way of why it bothers me a bit, so bear with me. I'm sure two weeks from now I'll think of it. Its like, saying to Christians, you're as bad as savages, you're primitive. I don't think its the most helpful way to equalize Christianity with, for example, Voodoo.

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I don't think human beings will ever stop being superstitious though. But give a few generations and religions will contort to fit the mold of the modern zeitgeist. It's good to know that we're not subjects of myths and while religions will do what they do to survive (it seems to become more liberalized and individual; a permutation that's actually beneficial for skepticism), people wont forever be beholden to myths as a given. I'm sure that within a couple generations or so; skepticism will be the dominant world view and most people may look to the scriptures as moving poetry.
Depends on what are myths! And what is religion. And how the rest of society goes. Sometimes I wonder what will archaeologists thousands of years from now will assume about us from artifacts, maybe they'll think we worshiped a god named "Market" and believed in fictional things like money.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:09 PM   #1285
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Right, but I'm more of the opinion that this thread would be better, if we must keep it going, if we ignored trolls XD I'm just a little uncomfortable comparing living religious texts and traditions to "myths", because its typically used to dismiss; we say Hindu "mythology" as we would dead Greek "mythology", but when we say Christian mythology or Jewish mythology, we're trying to demean it and bring it down to the level of, horror of horrors, religions we think are "silly" and typically are followed by non-Europeans. Not as bad as when people dismiss all religion as "voodoo nonsense" or something of the like, poor Voodoo. I'm not saying that's you're intention here, but its something that skeeves me out a bit, intended or not.

And one thing I like about the Old Testament is that it doesn't really offer truth or salvation or anything, no heaven and hell, no original sin, no after life, and a whole lot of moral grey area, it doesn't pretend its all universal and it should be applied to everyone (after all most of it is addressed very very specifically to a kingdom that no longer exists).
If the kingdom doesn't exist, wouldn't that rather definitively place it in the "mythology" category alongside the Grecco-Roman, Egyptian, and other dead religions?

It isn't a matter of "bringing it down" to the level of other belief systems, they already occupy the same space in terms of mythological beliefs. What raises it above them? Government recognition? Hello Jedi. Living practitioners? Thor and Co. are doing just fine with Ásatrú, and you can't throw a rock through the window of a New Age Wiccan store without hitting a Bast sculpture.

It's all superstitious nonsense. It is all silly, it isn't a matter of associating a non-silly belief system with "silly" (ie Non-white apparently) ones to demean it, they are all inherently ridiculous, none deserving any more respect than any other.

That doesn't preclude pointing out particular arguments are flawed or otherwise discussing the root subjects.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:18 PM   #1286
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If the kingdom doesn't exist, wouldn't that rather definitively place it in the "mythology" category alongside the Grecco-Roman, Egyptian, and other dead religions?

It isn't a matter of "bringing it down" to the level of other belief systems, they already occupy the same space in terms of mythological beliefs. What raises it above them? Government recognition? Hello Jedi. Living practitioners? Thor and Co. are doing just fine with Ásatrú, and you can't throw a rock through the window of a New Age Wiccan store without hitting a Bast sculpture.

It's all superstitious nonsense. It is all silly, it isn't a matter of associating a non-silly belief system with "silly" (ie Non-white apparently) ones to demean it, they are all inherently ridiculous, none deserving any more respect than any other.

That doesn't preclude pointing out particular arguments are flawed or otherwise discussing the root subjects.
The kingdom is gone, but the descendants are still around who are united by that tradition, crazy enough. There isn't exactly a Horus Defamation League. People who worship gods from dead religions aren't practicing the same religion, they might not even actually believe in gods. Some neopagans actually take a Jungian view, they don't actually believe Thor exists, they just think there are psychological benefits in having religious narratives that deal with archetypes, which are metaphors that we can apply to daily life. Raelians, like I said, hold up science and empiricism as the highest thing. Scientologists are a little iffy, I mean they don't come right out with the alien soul stuff, so I imagine there's practioners who believe themselves to be empricists, rational and logical. Superstition doesn't unite them all, and superstition isn't specifically religious.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:18 PM   #1287
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AshleyO, I would say that there isn't anywhere without people who doubt religion. Though spirituality has shown to be a popular thing regardless of doubt. People obviously don't need proof to hold that thought, though. Offhand, I would think that less stigma on disbelief is more indicative of the growing criticism then any particular religion or spiritual mindset losing it's relevance to people. As you said, people used to be persecuted much more openly. It makes sense, to me, that that would explain what might appear to be spirituality losing popularity.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:19 PM   #1288
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But that limits what religious stories are. Raelianism, for example, is a militant atheist religion that claims to value science and empiricism above all, and yes they are recognized as a religion by the US government and they receive the same tax breaks other churches get, there's no theist privilege there no matter how vocal they are about it. They even had a "God Is A Myth" bus campaign. But they, too, have religious stories, even if there is no god involved in them, believing aliens created us and have a higher purpose for us is still a religious idea.
And it's a pretty silly assumption; don't you think? I think aliens making us might be ONE idea that COULD be SLIGHTLY probable (I just saw Prometheus. It was awesome). But the burden of proof is on them to prove that these aliens had a high purpose for humanity. They should certainly be noted as a religion.

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The centrality of religion around a god is an ultimately ethnocentric/Christian centric view. Its a hegemonic Christian view that we were raised in, even though we may no longer be Christians, we think like Christian still. Its very much worth stepping back from preconceptions and trying to define religion on its own, in context of its diversity and pervasiveness, and without holding Christianity up as the religion that all others are defined by.
I wouldn't really care to do that. But then again, the burden of proof is always on the one making the positive claim... such as the Railiens who think humanity has a high purpose. Why does humanity need a high purpose?



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I'm not sure you appreciate the diversity of religious narratives and what they encompass, though. And yes, I'm addressing that part, but its utilizing the kind of language that is often used to dismiss oppressed people and their cultures and religions, you know?
Oh no. I certainly get you. But I suppose my problem is that I'm admitting disavowed truths. Some truths are mean and unfair and terrible. Would you rather me lie and say that myths are true? I don't think it's totally a good idea to dismiss the myths that are important to people outright. But being that this is a forum where ideas are shared and I say that I admit that I have doubts; you and I both know that we can follow the conclusions as to what I think in regards to any spiritual belief.

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Like, once I had a mythology book from the library where it was about World Mythology, and it was all about the mythology of tribal religions, without any cultural or historical context and its next to the shelf of ancient Greek mythology, which is gross. I'm not really good at articulating in a short precise way of why it bothers me a bit, so bear with me. I'm sure two weeks from now I'll think of it. Its like, saying to Christians, you're as bad as savages, you're primitive. I don't think its the most helpful way to equalize Christianity with, for example, Voodoo.
Well sure. These things are important to people. But faith is infected with contradictions. You may as well say that doubt itself is a terrible sin.



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Depends on what are myths! And what is religion. And how the rest of society goes. Sometimes I wonder what will archaeologists thousands of years from now will assume about us from artifacts, maybe they'll think we worshiped a god named "Market" and believed in fictional things like money.
Oh I'm most certainly positive that they will. But you're making my point for me here. There's myths or... religions that matter because they matter now... and then there's your archaeologists who will say that we were a very primitive animal that believed in Market and several others that believed in other gods. I'm just basically skipping ahead in history here.

There's a LOT of things people believe. I would tell you that I think the belief in "human nature" is technically far more emergent and dangerous as any religion.

I could actually say nothing on my lack of belief or doubt or what have you; but simply admitting it pretty much does lump it all in that logical conclusion you can draw from it. How can you expect a non-believer to believe and not believe at the same time? That kind of cognitive dissonance would be very tough for me to balance.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:20 PM   #1289
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That is eternal life. You must never go there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VbSZN1XVNA Is it heaven?
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:29 PM   #1290
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AshleyO, I would say that there isn't anywhere without people who doubt religion. Though spirituality has shown to be a popular thing regardless of doubt. People obviously don't need proof to hold that thought, though. Offhand, I would think that less stigma on disbelief is more indicative of the growing criticism then any particular religion or spiritual mindset losing it's relevance to people. As you said, people used to be persecuted much more openly. It makes sense, to me, that that would explain what might appear to be spirituality losing popularity.
Oh sure. Say for example... we take the concept of belief. A belief. What if this concept isn't so much a circle, but a spiral that closes in on itself and goes upwards higher and higher. Sure, it looks static at one angle. It looks the same and monolithic and unchanging in its emergence. But looking at it as the spiral that it is; we see that even belief itself changes in function though it may look the same on the surface. What could that mean? Does this mean that belief becomes something more of a casual assumption that takes a back seat to almost everything else that no one cares about? Does it mean that belief become a thing where people freely admit it's things they'd like to think is true but isn't proven? Or could it mean that people will equate beliefs to facts of reality? The trend seems to be that belief is becoming a casual thing. Something that becomes suspended when something more emergent comes about. Take Christians that are communists. Surely many of them would have better sense to not alienate their comrades by saying that communism is a Christian mission. It certainly isn't.

I've met so many Christians in NYC lately that will freely admit that it's okay for people to be Muslim. Where in the scriptures did Jesus ever say that? But this is the Christian contradiction with history and liberalism.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:37 PM   #1291
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqZc2dyClko
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:37 PM   #1292
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I don't get it.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:38 PM   #1293
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And it's a pretty silly assumption; don't you think? I think aliens making us might be ONE idea that COULD be SLIGHTLY probable. But the burden of proof is on them to prove that these aliens had a high purpose for humanity. They should certainly be noted as a religion.

I wouldn't really care to do that. But then again, the burden of proof is always on the one making the positive claim... such as the Railiens who think humanity has a high purpose. Why does humanity need a high purpose?
There's a lot of people who believe in aliens who feel they have proof. Its kinda easy to get sucked up in conspiracy theories, and yet I don't think all people who believe in aliens are religious or part of a religious community. Conspiracy theorists might be logical and rational, but very very wrong.

The definition of religion I work on is that it defines what it means to be human, in relation to divinity (or lack thereof?) and the subhuman, what it means to be born and to die, have a sense of tradition, have a sense of community, and have a vision for the future. And it is broad because that includes a ton of pop culture that isn't taken for true, but people find a lot of meaning and community in. Trekkies for example, I would say are a kind of religious group. They might not really believe Star Trek is real, but like I said in my response for Jonathan, some religions don't believe in the supernatural at all, even their own supernatural stories. You can see that in a lot of fandoms, you can see that in nationalism. I'm starting to view the religion situation in America like Ancient Rome, you must worship the state, you should worship the religion the state likes the most, in the way the state likes the most. Americans have a higher purpose in the world! You're the leaders of the free world! Even the forefathers and the story of the revolution is very mythical, if I might say, and there's a lot of religious tones and themes surrounding American nationalism itself.

And that's very unique. I couldn't even tell you why Canada became its own country. Don't know any major figures involved. We don't have a creation myth.

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Oh no. I certainly get you. But I suppose my problem is that I'm admitting disavowed truths. Some truths are mean and unfair and terrible. Would you rather me lie and say that myths are true? I don't think it's totally a good idea to dismiss the myths that are important to people outright. But being that this is a forum where ideas are shared and I say that I admit that I have doubts; you and I both know that we can follow the conclusions as to what I think in regards to any spiritual belief.
its not that i'd rather you lie, but think more critically about how religion functions, the oppression dynamics and the assumptions we have as non-Christians-but-still-hold-to-Christian-ideas-about-religion people.

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Well sure. These things are important to people. But faith is infected with contradictions. You may as well say that doubt itself is a terrible sin.
Among a lot of religious people, and even in tradition, doubt isn't a bad thing. The hegomonic orthodoxy in positions of power typically doesn't like it because it displaces their political power, but religions that do not gain privilege from its practioners tend to be pretty lax about orthodoxy and doubt. There's a lot of discussion about what faith is I won't bore you with, but in a more organic religious life I suppose, it goes hand in hand with doubt.

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Oh I'm most certainly positive that they will. But you're making my point for me here. There's myths or... religions that matter because they matter now... and then there's your archaeologists who will say that we were a very primitive animal that believed in Market and several others that believed in other gods. I'm just basically skipping ahead in history here.

There's a LOT of things people believe. I would tell you that I think the belief in "human nature" is technically far more emergent and dangerous as any religion.
Like feminism or humanism?

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I could actually say nothing on my lack of belief or doubt or what have you; but simply admitting it pretty much does lump it all in that logical conclusion you can draw from it. How can you expect a non-believer to believe and not believe at the same time? That kind of cognitive dissonance would be very tough for me to balance.
If belief isn't even expected from followers, why do you suppose I require you to believe and not believe?
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:59 PM   #1294
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There's a lot of people who believe in aliens who feel they have proof. Its kinda easy to get sucked up in conspiracy theories, and yet I don't think all people who believe in aliens are religious or part of a religious community. Conspiracy theorists might be logical and rational, but very very wrong.
I'm confident that they are. I once saw a UFO. Scared the shit out of me. My point is; it's a mistake to assume something is actually true without proving it and continuing to think it's true despite lacking an ability to prove it doubly so. Is it a grievous sin? Eh. Worse things have been believed.

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The definition of religion I work on is that it defines what it means to be human, in relation to divinity (or lack thereof?) and the subhuman, what it means to be born and to die, have a sense of tradition, have a sense of community, and have a vision for the future. And it is broad because that includes a ton of pop culture that isn't taken for true, but people find a lot of meaning and community in.
I'll have to disagree with you here. You're giving religion way too much range to the point of it being whatever preserves the word itself for the sake of... I dunno.

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Trekkies for example, I would say are a kind of religious group. They might not really believe Star Trek is real, but like I said in my response for Jonathan, some religions don't believe in the supernatural at all, even their own supernatural stories. You can see that in a lot of fandoms, you can see that in nationalism. I'm starting to view the religion situation in America like Ancient Rome, you must worship the state, you should worship the religion the state likes the most, in the way the state likes the most. Americans have a higher purpose in the world! You're the leaders of the free world! Even the forefathers and the story of the revolution is very mythical, if I might say, and there's a lot of religious tones and themes surrounding American nationalism itself.
Yep. And it's pretty destructive. The Amero-religious fervor must be confronted viciously. That shit is empirically deadly. I still thing you're giving religion way too much of a range here though and really... you're kind of changing what religion actually is and talking about something entirely different than what is colloquially understood as religion. But I'm sure that desperate believers in actual religions would LOVE your definition because it eases the tension of cognitive dissonance.

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And that's very unique. I couldn't even tell you why Canada became its own country. Don't know any major figures involved. We don't have a creation myth.
History can tell you. Why did it become a country? Because this lead to this which lead to this which lead to this which lead to the emergence of the Canadian state. Not to say that the Canadian state was inevitable. But you can trace how it came to be and why it is now the way it is in historical context. Everything changes; even Canada. Which it seems is the contradiction of Christian scripture. It asserted that there were timeless ideas. Now anyone can be a Christian and have a totally different narrative about it. That's indicative of something far more interesting if you ask me; that Christianity for all its "final revelation" posturing ended up amending and changing and reinterpreting and correcting and admitting that the Earth really is round in the 90s.



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its not that i'd rather you lie, but think more critically about how religion functions, the oppression dynamics and the assumptions we have as non-Christians-but-still-hold-to-Christian-ideas-about-religion people.
Oh sure. I know what you mean. I think the religions that aren't so.... revelationy or whatever have a greater chance of adapting and staying relevant. If you ask me, Buddhism will outlive the 3 Abrahemic religions.



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Among a lot of religious people, and even in tradition, doubt isn't a bad thing. The hegomonic orthodoxy in positions of power typically doesn't like it because it displaces their political power, but religions that do not gain privilege from its practioners tend to be pretty lax about orthodoxy and doubt. There's a lot of discussion about what faith is I won't bore you with, but in a more organic religious life I suppose, it goes hand in hand with doubt.
I guess that's significant for some people; but that's not really important to me. I don't really care about that. If they want to make a positive claim about reality, I'd be eager to see them demonstrate that fact. I invite them to make me a believer.



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Like feminism or humanism?
Not really. Feminism isn't a religion. Lots of people can be dogmatic about it though. But I'd argue that that's actually a very good thing. Humanism? Eh.



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If belief isn't even expected from followers, why do you suppose I require you to believe and not believe?
Then by all means, it's not something to really worry about then. How broad do we want to make religion before it becomes a vapid and useless term and we're back to being specific again?
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:06 AM   #1295
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There's a lot of people who believe in aliens who feel they have proof. Its kinda easy to get sucked up in conspiracy theories, and yet I don't think all people who believe in aliens are religious or part of a religious community. Conspiracy theorists might be logical and rational, but very very wrong.
I'm confident that they are. I once saw a UFO. Scared the shit out of me. My point is; it's a mistake to assume something is actually true without proving it and continuing to think it's true despite lacking an ability to prove it doubly so. Is it a grievous sin? Eh. Worse things have been believed.

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The definition of religion I work on is that it defines what it means to be human, in relation to divinity (or lack thereof?) and the subhuman, what it means to be born and to die, have a sense of tradition, have a sense of community, and have a vision for the future. And it is broad because that includes a ton of pop culture that isn't taken for true, but people find a lot of meaning and community in.
I'll have to disagree with you here. You're giving religion way too much range to the point of it being whatever preserves the word itself for the sake of... I dunno.

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Trekkies for example, I would say are a kind of religious group. They might not really believe Star Trek is real, but like I said in my response for Jonathan, some religions don't believe in the supernatural at all, even their own supernatural stories. You can see that in a lot of fandoms, you can see that in nationalism. I'm starting to view the religion situation in America like Ancient Rome, you must worship the state, you should worship the religion the state likes the most, in the way the state likes the most. Americans have a higher purpose in the world! You're the leaders of the free world! Even the forefathers and the story of the revolution is very mythical, if I might say, and there's a lot of religious tones and themes surrounding American nationalism itself.
Yep. And it's pretty destructive. The Amero-religious fervor must be confronted viciously. That shit is empirically deadly. I still thing you're giving religion way too much of a range here though and really... you're kind of changing what religion actually is and talking about something entirely different than what is colloquially understood as religion. But I'm sure that desperate believers in actual religions would LOVE your definition because it eases the tension of cognitive dissonance.

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And that's very unique. I couldn't even tell you why Canada became its own country. Don't know any major figures involved. We don't have a creation myth.
History can tell you. Why did it become a country? Because this lead to this which lead to this which lead to this which lead to the emergence of the Canadian state. Not to say that the Canadian state was inevitable. But you can trace how it came to be and why it is now the way it is in historical context. Everything changes; even Canada. Which it seems is the contradiction of Christian scripture. It asserted that there were timeless ideas. Now anyone can be a Christian and have a totally different narrative about it. That's indicative of something far more interesting if you ask me; that Christianity for all its "final revelation" posturing ended up amending and changing and reinterpreting and correcting and admitting that the Earth really is round in the 90s.



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its not that i'd rather you lie, but think more critically about how religion functions, the oppression dynamics and the assumptions we have as non-Christians-but-still-hold-to-Christian-ideas-about-religion people.
Oh sure. I know what you mean. I think the religions that aren't so.... revelationy or whatever have a greater chance of adapting and staying relevant. If you ask me, Buddhism will outlive the 3 Abrahemic religions.



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Among a lot of religious people, and even in tradition, doubt isn't a bad thing. The hegomonic orthodoxy in positions of power typically doesn't like it because it displaces their political power, but religions that do not gain privilege from its practioners tend to be pretty lax about orthodoxy and doubt. There's a lot of discussion about what faith is I won't bore you with, but in a more organic religious life I suppose, it goes hand in hand with doubt.
I guess that's significant for some people; but that's not really important to me. I don't really care about that. If they want to make a positive claim about reality, I'd be eager to see them demonstrate that fact. I invite them to make me a believer.



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Like feminism or humanism?
Not really. Feminism isn't a religion. Lots of people can be dogmatic about it though. But I'd argue that that's actually a very good thing. Humanism? Eh.



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If belief isn't even expected from followers, why do you suppose I require you to believe and not believe?
Then by all means, it's not something to really worry about then. How broad do we want to make religion before it becomes a vapid and useless term and we're back to being specific again?
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:57 AM   #1296
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:15 AM   #1297
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While there is certainly a dismissive connotation to the word "myth" when it comes to the vernacular, that connotation does not carry over into the study of mythology. Its a lot like the difference between the word theory in the vernacular, verses the word theory in a scientific context.

Whether a religion is extant or not, shouldn't be an issue, in the end they all have allegorical value, despite the value they lack as literal explanations about the world.

While I can certainly see where you're coming from, I don't think it is something that applies in this context.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:01 AM   #1298
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I'm confident that they are. I once saw a UFO. Scared the shit out of me. My point is; it's a mistake to assume something is actually true without proving it and continuing to think it's true despite lacking an ability to prove it doubly so. Is it a grievous sin? Eh. Worse things have been believed.
And my point is they're pretty certain they're not assuming and they have proof.

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I'll have to disagree with you here. You're giving religion way too much range to the point of it being whatever preserves the word itself for the sake of... I dunno.
Its the only definition that fits all religions. Chidester called pop culture "authentic fakes" (the definition I'm using, he came up with in the same book, we're using it as a text book right now), but I'm not too certain I'm going to call it "fake" religion.

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Yep. And it's pretty destructive. The Amero-religious fervor must be confronted viciously. That shit is empirically deadly. I still thing you're giving religion way too much of a range here though and really... you're kind of changing what religion actually is and talking about something entirely different than what is colloquially understood as religion. But I'm sure that desperate believers in actual religions would LOVE your definition because it eases the tension of cognitive dissonance.
its better than using a Christian definition, which many atheists do (and why they might not believe Buddhism is a religion) and its far more academically sound. Otherwise, religions get left out even though we *know* they're religions. Religious narratives get left out because we simply don't want to think of them as religious narratives.

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History can tell you. Why did it become a country? Because this lead to this which lead to this which lead to this which lead to the emergence of the Canadian state. Not to say that the Canadian state was inevitable. But you can trace how it came to be and why it is now the way it is in historical context. Everything changes; even Canada. Which it seems is the contradiction of Christian scripture. It asserted that there were timeless ideas. Now anyone can be a Christian and have a totally different narrative about it. That's indicative of something far more interesting if you ask me; that Christianity for all its "final revelation" posturing ended up amending and changing and reinterpreting and correcting and admitting that the Earth really is round in the 90s.
Where did it assume it was timeless? As long as there's been Christianity, its been going on. Early Christianity was very diverse and it was only a couple hundred years along when "heresies" had to be squashed, and they never did get rid of it. The Eastern Orthodox church has a much different outlook on life than the Roman Catholic church, and they've been around just as long. There have been many ecumenical councils and arguments and different opinions and views and outlooks, schisms and reformations. Never was there a Christian monolith. What scripture even IS is different, what's canon to the Jewish Bible is different from the Protestant Bible is different from the Catholic Bible. In the modern era we debate why things are canon and whether they should be canon. We have the Gnostic Gospels now and know that Christianity could be way way different from what we know, and some people like that and go to that. Really what is "orthodoxy" is a nostalgic view of a past that never was.

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Oh sure. I know what you mean. I think the religions that aren't so.... revelationy or whatever have a greater chance of adapting and staying relevant. If you ask me, Buddhism will outlive the 3 Abrahemic religions.
I'm not so sure. Islam is growing fast, and I get the appeal. When the world changes so fast and we're becoming so global, I understand the want to have a tradition to reflect on, a religious community and a set lifestyle.




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I guess that's significant for some people; but that's not really important to me. I don't really care about that. If they want to make a positive claim about reality, I'd be eager to see them demonstrate that fact. I invite them to make me a believer.
All I'm saying is doubt is a positive thing in many religious practices.

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Not really. Feminism isn't a religion. Lots of people can be dogmatic about it though. But I'd argue that that's actually a very good thing. Humanism? Eh.
It answers the same question of what it means to be human (and gendered), and it certainly can take a spiritual flair in ecofeminism or material feminism. And its pretty harmful when radscum are insisting transwomen aren't real women and shouldn't be in our community. Or being a woamn is a universal, irrelevant of race or orientation or class or ability. There's plenty of witch hunts and calls for orthodoxy. Obviously I think feminism is very useful, but its not just a tool, its a whole community filled with people I agree with and people I couldn't disagree with more and feel the urge to contain with salt.

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Then by all means, it's not something to really worry about then. How broad do we want to make religion before it becomes a vapid and useless term and we're back to being specific again?
When you're specific, religions fly under the radar and we have a limited view of what religion is. When you're broad, you include a lot of "authentic fakes", but they should be studied too anyway. Even if we don't intentionally express ourselves in a religious way, its very telling when we do.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:05 AM   #1299
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And I just realized this thread title is blasphemous.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:19 AM   #1300
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While there is certainly a dismissive connotation to the word "myth" when it comes to the vernacular, that connotation does not carry over into the study of mythology. Its a lot like the difference between the word theory in the vernacular, verses the word theory in a scientific context.

Whether a religion is extant or not, shouldn't be an issue, in the end they all have allegorical value, despite the value they lack as literal explanations about the world.

While I can certainly see where you're coming from, I don't think it is something that applies in this context.
We're not mythologists here, we're atheists and Buddhists and I'm not even finished my degree yet. Plus how we understand mythology is often sanitized or outdated., and what we like to view as myths in other cultures is just so we can voyeuristicly study them without knowing about things like Ghost Dances or acknowledging them as living traditions.

When you lift myth out of the religion, you get a story taken out of its cultural and historical context with no mention of how its practiced. Its very unuseful to take something like lets say Judges 19 out of its historical context and why its there at all, and just say "here's a horribly violent story". I suppose that's why so many heathens are racist when I'm sure the Norse didn't give too much thought about it, its not the same religion at all, its a new religion taking stories out of their context and making new religion out of it.
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