Black Goths...Never seen one

[OnyxBat]

Fine...it's stettled then

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by Apathy's_Child

As much as I love winding the little fucker up, I'd have to take issue with this. He's rarely a rampant dick without provocation of some kind.

I've been watching him for years. My statement was accurate.

[Heretic]

Originally Posted by OnyxBat

That was not sarcastic that was pure racisum and my IQ is quite larger... than yours but hey kudos for you, you finally came up with a creative insult!
But your grammer is way more off than mine, the only person who needs adjuting here is you.

Not true. And even if Sinjob's original statement was questionable, I believe he cleared up any question in the following post.

Again, asking for clarification on a statement is typically the wiser course of action. You cannot derive meaning from the content of a post without understanding the poster's intent.

You are making the same mistake here that some members made in their short-sighted reactions to the topic of your thread.


- Heretic

[Heretic]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Again, in the two pages since my last post you've proven my point. You've talked about dictionaries and slang and climate and what is or isn't racist. But you haven't demonstrated in any constructive way that there's a difference between being an Black Goth or a black skydiver or a black dermatologist or a black Republican (heh!). There is not a cohesive subject here, and that's why there isn't a discussion of it in these 6 pages.

While it is unfortunate that OnxyBat has exhibited knee-jerk reactions to some posts, and allowed herself to be pulled away from the original topic of discussion, you are dismissing this thread based on off-topic posts. If restricting posts to the subject at hand is your only criteria for whether or not a thread is valid, you could make a case for every thread on this entire site being equally worthless.

As for a discussion of the subject at hand, there have been a few people trying to steer this thread onto more interesting ground (which disproves your "point", does it not?). I will be addressing them in my next post.

The challenges of being black are significant and culturally broad (depending on geography) but adding Goth to it only adds the challenges any other Goth has. Do I look good wearing this? Am I listening to acceptable music? Will others accept me for who I am?

There are issues specific to African American cultural identity that raise unique issues I feel are worthy of discussion. If you feel differently, just sit back and be patient; those of us with intimate knowledge and experience in this area will be more than happy to share our perspective. Once you've heard a few more opinions, you may actually have enough information to judge from knowledge, rather than dismiss from ignorance.

Get over it.

I've heard that phrase used to counter many, many issues ethnic, religious, and gender minorities have raised. What an unfortunately dismissive choice of words, especially in addressing an issue being raised by someone new to the Gothic subculture.

You may have heard the old Chinese proverb:

He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.

Give OnyxBat (and the other younger, newer members for that matter) credit for having the courage to ask questions; at least they're trying to explore the subculture. You don't have to have the patience of a saint with what you may feel is a silly or stupid question, but you don't have to go out of your way to eviscerate them either.


- Heretic

[Ben Lahnger]

Rather than pontificating to me that there is a subject worthy of discussion hidden somewhere in this thread, start a new thread with your distilled vision of what subject you want to discuss. I look forward to it with interest.

[Heretic]

Originally Posted by lady_cthulhu

Heretic -
All right, I'll bite ^.^ (pun intended). What sort of fashion do you personally prefer?

It depends on my mood and what I happen to be doing at the time. In this summer heat, I tend towards black athletic shirts with cargo shorts that are heavy on the zippers and buckles. I typically reserve my jeans and motorcycle boots for the evenings. Here's a recent picture of me a the local zoo:



Come autumn and winter, I get to dress things up the way I like. My personal take on the subculture is based on my studies in Romanticism and the Romantic Revival most people know as Art Deco or the Jazz Age. I favor a modern update to Victorian clothing, as well as the more modern lines in clothing from the Jazz Age. I'll put a darker twist on this with antique accents and jewelry sinister-looking enough to catch my eye, as well as the occasional tailored consignment piece. Most weekdays, give or take a vest or frock coat, I can be seen looking like this:



When I'm not dressing up, I'll wear what I call "Outdoor Gothic": dark and subdued versions of clothing made for outdoor activity, commonly from stores like REI. Keep in mind that I live in Minnesota, land of subzero temperatures and snow. Doc Marten's suck ass in snowy conditions, and below a certain temperature, my leathers lose their insulating properties. I own an array of heavy-duty winter gear (all of it black or storm cloud gray, of course) that allows me a put a darker twist on what I wear without forcing me to freeze all winter for the sake of fashion. The North Face and Carhartt are favorites of mine.

Do you wear makeup? If so what kind, and in what style?

I've been known to wear clear mascara, but that's about it. The point of most make-up is to accentuate. My eyes already contrast plenty with my skin, my jawline and cheek bones stand out as a result of my shaved head, and facial hair is more expressive than the featureless skin effect make-up provides.

Of course, having dark skin means that "Goth" is the last thing that comes to most people's minds when they see me. Whether I'm decked out in my boots and leathers or dressed to the nines in shades and a black tailored long coat, most people can't wrap their minds around the idea that black people and Goth culture aren't mutually exclusive.


- Heretic

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

No, in the South it doesn't.

The word "Caucasian" refers to people from Northern India. I'm not sure why it got applied to white people, but it's wrong.

I'm not sure as to the context of your use of Caucasian, but as far as I know it (used most in physical anthropology) Caucasian races cover Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, and then South,West, and Central Asia. (So yes, India would be a country within there). Negroid refers to Sub-Saharan Africa, though this term has been disputed by many people for many reasons. The final giant umbrella group are Mongoloids, Northern and Eastern Asians, though this term has also been debated heavily (some suggesting so far as to include people of the Pacific Islands and even North American natives to this group).

The terms, other than caucasian for some reason, are rarely used outside anthropology, and in there rarely outside physical anthropology except in craniofacial anthropometry. (As an example, when the character Temperence Brennan on Bones identifies people's race by their skull, that's what the show is referencing).

It should be noted that, as it is obvious, these groups are sweeping and immensely broad and as such only used in Taxonomy.

It should also be noted that I'm quite sure you (Underwater Ophelia) already knew this. I'm just posting this because the term Caucasian was under debate.

As a side note: Yes, I am an anthropology major and YES, I concede to having looked up the terms so that I posted all the regions, I'm still an undergrad student and I do forget things.

Since this post is far more serious than how I normally post, here's a picture of a hamster playing golf

[Heretic]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Rather than pontificating to me that there is a subject worthy of discussion hidden somewhere in this thread, start a new thread with your distilled vision of what subject you want to discuss. I look forward to it with interest.

That response illustrates the crux of our differing views on this thread. You would prefer to abandon what you see as a pointless thread, whereas I do not feel the need to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, when this one rolls just fine.


- Heretic

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by Heretic

That response illustrates the crux of our differing views on this thread. You would prefer to abandon what you see as a pointless thread, whereas I do not feel the need to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, when this one rolls just fine.

Wrong.

Let us deconstruct the OP's original post (and I am NOT doing this to pick on the OP further) to illuminate the point that the premise of this thesis is not a discussable subject.

First, we've all acknowledged that the thread title "Black Goths ... Never seen one" was just a statement made by a person who had little experience in the world. No real subject for discussion there.

Originally Posted by OnyxBat

Ok it's really rare to find a Black goth girl or boy.

We've discovered it's very easy to find a black goth ... here and elsewhere on the net. If that was the subject for discussion, it's been settled.

Originally Posted by OnyxBat

I've read some stories and about them and how non black goths are racist towards them.

First, this seems apocryphal on the surface, but more importantly, nobody in 9 pages of discussion has indicated in any way that there is some form of discrimination inflicted on black goths by non-black goths that is different from the kinds of discrimination inflicted on blacks by non-blacks. Not one sentence has addressed this, including none in your plentiful statements. If that was the subject you were after, you should have been more adept at addressing it.

Originally Posted by OnyxBat

I would just like some opinons on how you would approach one.

This has been rightly called out as racist. Unless you wish the subject of this thread to be how people should treat black goths differently, this is a non-subject.

Originally Posted by OnyxBat

And how would there own race see them.

Again, not a subject that has been discussed once in 9 pages.

Originally Posted by OnyxBat

*this is not a racist thread*

And this speaks for itself. See there, I just demonstrated for you that no wheel has been invented, and no rolling is occuring. If we were to try to make your wheel anology work, it would be that the wheel is rolling off into the wilderness and you are trying to steer it onto a road.

So, if you were hoping this could be a thread discussing, say, the ways that black goths express their gothnicity (or some other potentially interesting topic like that), that would be threadjacking this thread. You should just start a new thread stating clearly what topic you want do discuss. Because this is a mess.

Oh, one more reason for starting a new thread: because noobies and babybats will come here and respond to the original post, thread-jacking your thread-jacked subject out of shape.

[Heretic]

Originally Posted by Joker_in_the_Pack

I'm not sure as to the context of your use of Caucasian, but as far as I know it (used most in physical anthropology) Caucasian races cover Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, and then South,West, and Central Asia. (So yes, India would be a country within there). Negroid refers to Sub-Saharan Africa, though this term has been disputed by many people for many reasons. The final giant umbrella group are Mongoloids, Northern and Eastern Asians, though this term has also been debated heavily (some suggesting so far as to include people of the Pacific Islands and even North American natives to this group).

The terms, other than caucasian for some reason, are rarely used outside anthropology, and in there rarely outside physical anthropology except in craniofacial anthropometry. (As an example, when the character Temperence Brennan on Bones identifies people's race by their skull, that's what the show is referencing).

Eh....sort of.

The use of the term "Caucasian" as a description for segments of the human population dates back to the coining of the phrase (as used in the field of anthropology) by the German anthropologist Johann Friedrich Blumenbach. In addition to "Caucasian" and "Mongoloid", the remainder of the descriptors used in his so-called "Five Races" theory included "Ethiopian" (not "Negroid"; that term came into use in anthropology circles decades after Blumenbach died), "Malayan" (Southeast Asians), and "American" (Native Americans).

BTW -- it's interesting to note that Blumenbach's theories formed some of the foundation for anthropology's sick younger cousin, Eugenics. Blumenbach listed his Five Races in order of "degradation", with Caucasians counted as being the least "degraded" of the human "races" from the pinnacle of the scala naturae, or "Great Chain of Being" (God and the angelic host being placed above humanity).

As a side note: Yes, I am an anthropology major and YES, I concede to having looked up the terms so that I posted all the regions, I'm still an undergrad student and I do forget things.

And I have the (mis)fortune of a degree in Journalism. As a result, I can't get out of bed without looking something up, so you'll get a pass on that from me.


- Heretic

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

After chewing us all a new asshole for engaging in discussions with trolls elsewhere on this board that we were supposed to be ignoring, Alan has got himself into a reoccurring hypocritical battle of wits with DMW (which he is losing), even after he's agreed we should all be ignoring DMW.

You know what's more annoying than DMW? Your constant whining that we SHOULD ignore DMW.
He doesn't address you as often, if ever. It's easy for you to ignore him, and that's fine and well, but you're a fucking idiot if you really get upset that I chose a different path in the end.

You're fucking telling me "ignore the mosquitoes" when you have a net.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by Alan

You know what's more annoying than DMW? Your constant whining that we SHOULD ignore DMW.
He doesn't address you as often, if ever. It's easy for you to ignore him, and that's fine and well, but you're a fucking idiot if you really get upset that I chose a different path in the end.

You're fucking telling me "ignore the mosquitoes" when you have a net.

Hey, asshole! You know why he doesn't ever address me any more? Because I simply stick to ignoring him ... and he's finally recognized that there's nothing he can do to get my attention. In other words, I did exactly what you suggested and it worked.

You told me how to make the fucking net, and it was a brilliant freaking success!

Want to get back to me when you act as smart as you talk?

[Alan]

No you old cunt, when he addressed you it was because you addressed him, or he argued something specific you said.
Do you have him on ignore and you really can't see his posts? Because if you did you'd see he still addresses me simply because I'm a Mexican and makes shit up about Mexicans as a whole. I won't let that fly by, and I would really hate you if you did.
In what goddamn point in time has he addressed you for three months straight despite you ignoring him? I haven't seen any posts like that.

[Ben Lahnger]

I have him on ignore, really can't see his posts unless some of the people around here who seem bent on enabling his racist, homophobic, misogynistic rantings choose to quote him. Then I use my willpower to ignore him because nothing I do here will change him and the only thing anyone can do by responding to him here is provide fuel for his fire.

Since I put him on ignore, I responded to only one post of his, the one where he stated a member deserved to be rraped, because I saw it quoted. That time I responded indirectly, reporting the post.

Alan, he knows you're his bitch any time he says something about Mexicans ... and he knows you are a corked bottle full of anger right now just looking for an excuse to vent on the web. So he's pushed your buttons all the time, and you let him.

As I said, nothing anyone here can say to him is going to change him. They're just giving him more motivation. Which is what you said in the first place!

[Alan]

And twice it already has happened that new people think I'm a hypocrite because of his bullshit that I 'hate the American government but don't care about the brutality of the Mexican government.'

[Tam Li Hua]

Ben, you are fast becoming my favorite person on Gnet. You make more sense than anyone else here [including me].

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by Alan

And twice it already has happened that new people think I'm a hypocrite because of his bullshit that I 'hate the American government but don't care about the brutality of the Mexican government.'

He only has credibility because you give it to him.

[Anarasha]

Aye.
Having DMW on the ignore list is a relief.
I smile a little when I see those small letters telling me that I have him ignored.

[Heretic]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Wrong.

We shall see.

Let us deconstruct the OP's original post (and I am NOT doing this to pick on the OP further) to illuminate the point that the premise of this thesis is not a discussable subject.

Your exhaustive deconstruction not only ignores any follow-up or corrections offered by OnxyBat, it completely discounts posts that illustrate the range of views this subject has generated. Personally, I have posted in the spirit of the broader issues raised by OnyxBat's admittedly clumsy question, namely how self-identification with the Gothic subculture presents unique issues for African Americans, both within the subculture and by non-Goth members of African-American culture.

It would appear you are being painfully literal in your assessment of the validity of OnyxBat's initial post, something that makes your dismissal of this thread understandable, even if I disagree with your conclusions.

And this speaks for itself. See there, I just demonstrated for you that no wheel has been invented, and no rolling is occuring. If we were to try to make your wheel anology work, it would be that the wheel is rolling off into the wilderness and you are trying to steer it onto a road.

I'll agree with the steering part. Would this mean that you acknowledge that the wheel does exist? You seem to be arguing on both sides here.

So, if you were hoping this could be a thread discussing, say, the ways that black goths express their gothnicity (or some other potentially interesting topic like that), that would be threadjacking this thread. You should just start a new thread stating clearly what topic you want do discuss.

Again, it makes no sense to discount a thread simply because it contains posts do not adhere to the literal wording of the opening post. Wouldn't that, in your own opinion, invalidate the vast majority of threads to be found on the board? Let's be realistic; questions and answers have a way of opening discussions to broader topics, whether we want them to or not. I am not threadjacking, only taking the opportunity to fold the reasoning behind the thesis question into a broader discussion topic. Is this such an affront to civil discussion?

Because this is a mess.

Again, I have to agree with you there, but only because so much space was wasted with personal attacks on OnyxBat, her own sometimes misplaced outrage at how her question has been received, and the back-and-forth between you an I over the validity of this thread.

Oh, one more reason for starting a new thread: because noobies and babybats will come here and respond to the original post, thread-jacking your thread-jacked subject out of shape.

And they wouldn't "jack" a new thread? I say let them come; I have no issue with "steering", as you say, what I see as a legitimate subject away from attacks and sarcasm and into opinion and discussion. Besides, I kind of like the organic evolution of discussion possible with this thread; especially the fact that it started with a noobie's question and a wide variety of responses. Maybe this will serve as an example. Maybe more people will be emboldened to brave the wrath of the crusty old guard and post some truly interesting subjects to discuss, insults be damned.

Who knows? We might actually end up with newer, more interesting things to discuss. Stranger things have happened.


- Heretic

[allyssa]

heretic:

you are a babe!
and you have very elegant taste.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by Heretic

Personally, I have posted in the spirit of the broader issues raised by OnyxBat's admittedly clumsy question, namely how self-identification with the Gothic subculture presents unique issues for African Americans, both within the subculture and by non-Goth members of African-American culture.

That's still clumsy, although there's a germ of an interesting subject there, to be sure. But it would still be thread-jacking to get that topic discussed here.

Originally Posted by Heretic

I'll agree with the steering part. Would this mean that you acknowledge that the wheel does exist? You seem to be arguing on both sides here.

I acknowledge that there was no wheel introduced into the OP starting post, but you've been trying to drag a wheel here from another country. Again, it's a lot less work and more pragmatic to start a new thread. Plus, you'll have better luck keeping everyone on topic.

Originally Posted by Heretic

Again, it makes no sense to discount a thread simply because it contains posts do not adhere to the literal wording of the opening post. Wouldn't that, in your own opinion, invalidate the vast majority of threads to be found on the board? Let's be realistic; questions and answers have a way of opening discussions to broader topics, whether we want them to or not. I am not threadjacking, only taking the opportunity to fold the reasoning behind the thesis question into a broader discussion topic. Is this such an affront to civil discussion?

Opening posts define threads. I do not think that the vast majority of threads formed on this board would be invalidated, but thread-jacking IS called out on a regular basis. If I thought you were trying to make a point anywhere near what the OP stated, I would agree with you on the broadening of the discussion. But after 10 pages of chaos and seeing you still cannot succinctly state what subject you are trying to discuss, I leave you to wrangle this rampant ox of a thread in whatever direction you might choose.

[allyssa]

Ancient Egypt....gothic obsession! their is an entire subgenre of goth, egyptian goth. I collect books, documentaries,
and I also see many exhibits to see mummies, canoptic jars and mythological figures. I love cats and ancient egyptians have many beautiful images and statues of cats. ancient Egyptians sacrificed cats to the goddess bastet and sometimes mummified them. I feel that it complements gothic culture because of the mystery, magic fertility rites and the Obsession with death and the after life.

[Sinjob]

Originally Posted by Heretic

I've heard that phrase used to counter many, many issues ethnic, religious, and gender minorities have raised. What an unfortunately dismissive choice of words, especially in addressing an issue being raised by someone new to the Gothic subculture.

You may have heard the old Chinese proverb:

He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.

Give OnyxBat (and the other younger, newer members for that matter) credit for having the courage to ask questions; at least they're trying to explore the subculture. You don't have to have the patience of a saint with what you may feel is a silly or stupid question, but you don't have to go out of your way to eviscerate them either.

I'm not really saying get over being goth or wanting to be goth, but don't concern yourself over it. So many kids have the wrong idea of expressing yourself and being apart of a subculture. You're not inaugurated or baptized to it-you identify and show interest in it and nothing more. Anything expanded off of goth being a genre and not-so underground (anymore) style is kidding themselves.

[Hearts_Purple]

I don't see 'egyptian goth' as a sub-genre in the least. If you've looked into the roots of the Goth subculture the first bands wore Egyptian imagery, so it's more of a Trad look.

[ape descendant]

No joke.. I remember my first ankh. *dreamy eyes*