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Old 10-01-2011, 07:47 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by wolf moon View Post
I'm not interested in engaging with you on the topic. So far you haven't said anything to indicate you know enough about the situation to make it an interesting or productive conversation. I responded to your request for someone to point out why your logic is bad. That doesn't mean I'm interested in discussing something I've actually made an effort to learn about with someone who clearly hasn't.
You didn't adress anything that had been said logically, you simply dismissed the idea of doing so. I was hoping to hear peoples opinions and if yours is well researched then I want to hear it even more.

If you allow for the fact that it is a social illness when people are forced into prostitution, that says nothing about those who choose it.
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Old 10-01-2011, 07:54 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Grausamkeit View Post
Ah, mah gawd, son! That is a lame as shit answer!

I r disappoint.
Look, I don't put a lot of thought in to my thread titles. Apathy quite rightly pointed out that the subject was too broad, so now I want to discuss prostitution specifically, and as of the last post (evolving discussion see) specifically not case where people are forced to engage in it any more than they are forced to work for a living.
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Old 10-01-2011, 11:59 AM   #28
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See? This is why I didn't participate in this thread. It's too forced, and just like in the Magick thread you're not really looking for a discussion; you just want to flaunt your half-assed and half-thought-out opinions without having to defend them.
Kid, you got dozens of members that actively participate in the LGBT and feminist movements, a nice number that actually pursued feminism as an academic field, and at least two members who have actively participated in the fight for sex workers rights. Do you really feel like you're the shit?

Also, "money equals power, therefore prostitutes are powerful".
Let's leave out the fact that apparently you have never heard the word 'pimp'.
Seriously? You're going to use that in a forum full with socialists?
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Old 10-01-2011, 12:25 PM   #29
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See? This is why I didn't participate in this thread. It's too forced, and just like in the Magick thread you're not really looking for a discussion; you just want to flaunt your half-assed and half-thought-out opinions without having to defend them.
Kid, you got dozens of members that actively participate in the LGBT and feminist movements, a nice number that actually pursued feminism as an academic field, and at least two members who have actively participated in the fight for sex workers rights. Do you really feel like you're the shit?
What's my half-thought-out opinion, that prostitution can be seen as empowering? It's an argument I've heard before, and never seen satisfactorily explored. If there are so many people here with well thought out opinions, I would like to hear them, particularly with regards to prostitution as a choice, as I think we can take it as a given that being forced into it cannot be empowering.

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Also, "money equals power, therefore prostitutes are powerful".
Let's leave out the fact that apparently you have never heard the word 'pimp'.
Seriously? You're going to use that in a forum full with socialists?

Do all prostitutes have pimps? Does socialism not acknowledge that capitalism is the current state of the world? Is money not power in our society?
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Old 10-01-2011, 12:45 PM   #30
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I bet you'll find surprising to know that I advocate for the legalization of prostitution. That still does not put is in the same camp. Your opinions are so idiotic.
It's like if you were anti-capitalist but only because you want to go back to feudalism. Dipshit move.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 10-01-2011, 01:06 PM   #31
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I bet you'll find surprising to know that I advocate for the legalization of prostitution. That still does not put is in the same camp. Your opinions are so idiotic.
It's like if you were anti-capitalist but only because you want to go back to feudalism. Dipshit move.
What are my opinions?

I'm not at all surprised. It's like how you can advocate the legalisation of drugs and still condemn the use and/or sale of drugs. I'm not even sure that's a proper analogy because I'm not sure what stance you've imagined me to have taken.
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Old 10-01-2011, 01:26 PM   #32
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Nah, she totally won this one. You're just being stubborn. Prostitution is, at best, a false sense of 'empowerment'. I've never known a prostitute irl, but I've known strippers. I don't know if it's the majority, but the ones *I* knew got into as a false sense of empower after they were ***** or sexually abused. It didn't empower them. It just made them think that most men are disgusting creeps.

Money doesn't wash the feeling of disgust from your skin. It just buys the drugs that make that line of work easier to do.
Plus given the risks prostitutes face, stds, **** (surveys show most johns don't think prostitutes can be *****, they also did a collection of opinions of johns a few years back that was pretty disturbing), murder (very high rate), plus they don't make much money. In a lot of places where prostitution is legalized, its not really. Brothels are legalized and the owners make millions, but prostitutes themselves are "contracted", so they have to pay to use the rooms in the brothels, I think the average cost of a room for the night in a brothel room in the Netherlands is 200 dollars.

Thats actually why I have issues with strip clubs, its not what they're inherently doing, its just most clubs don't pay them wages, they have to pay to be there and make all their money from tips, and many have to share their tips (to cover the cost of bouncers, bartenders, etc.)

I don't think a brothel could truly be free of monetary coercion without being a collectively run brothel.

But yeah, half thought out opinions are half thought out.
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Old 10-01-2011, 01:40 PM   #33
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Brothels are not the whole story. Plenty of independent escorts out there. There is a price curve.

Do you feel that giving a man sex for money should be viewed no differently than for instance giving him a massage or fixing his car? Or is there inherently a difference that sets prostitutes apart from other kinds of service provider?
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Old 10-01-2011, 01:44 PM   #34
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An escort is not a prostitute, escorts don't necessarily have sex with their clients. Its more of a companionship thing, but sex can be involved.

Sex isn't a service, its a performance between consenting people. Because patriarchy devalues women and their sexuality, prostitution is one of the unsafest jobs you can have, and frankly I have better things to do than to outline all the ways it is unsafe from a guy who only brought it up to start shit and has no real interest in learning about it. Go read a book.
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Old 10-01-2011, 01:47 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Elystan View Post
Cute, but fault my logic
Freedom of movement in prostitution:

Empowering
-An unrealistic assumption about what an average prostitute makes

Prohibiting
-Self incrimination
-Need for protection
-Threat of violence* from other prostitutes
-Threat of violence* from their pimps
-Threat of violence* from your pimp
-Threat of violence* from your customers
-Little to no opportunity for advancement
-Little to no respect from people outside of immediate co-workers
-Forced drug used

*Threat of violence includes, but is not limited to:

****, murder, sexual assault, and psychological abuse

additionally, this threat is not exclusive to the individual prostitute, but extends to her family, co-workers, and customers as well.

Does that about sum it up?
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:13 PM   #36
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Freedom of movement in prostitution:

Empowering
-An unrealistic assumption about what an average prostitute makes

Prohibiting
-Self incrimination
-Need for protection
-Threat of violence* from other prostitutes
-Threat of violence* from their pimps
-Threat of violence* from your pimp
-Threat of violence* from your customers
-Little to no opportunity for advancement
-Little to no respect from people outside of immediate co-workers
-Forced drug used

*Threat of violence includes, but is not limited to:

****, murder, sexual assault, and psychological abuse

additionally, this threat is not exclusive to the individual prostitute, but extends to her family, co-workers, and customers as well.

Does that about sum it up?
A pretty young girl can easily make 200/hour, which isn't huge. That would mean 100 hour long bookings for an annual wage of 20,000. That might be a lot of men, but most people work 100 hours in two weeks. Also there's nothing to say that it has to be the sole source of income. It would be quite easy to take a booking here and there to supplement the income from a full time job. There's a risk of violence but that didn't stop you.

I'm not necessarily saying it's empowering, but the idea that a woman must be forced to sell herself is erroneous.
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:15 PM   #37
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An escort is not a prostitute, escorts don't necessarily have sex with their clients. Its more of a companionship thing, but sex can be involved.
That's the blurb but it's prostitution. Sex isn't always involved, but more often than not, it is.

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Sex isn't a service, its a performance between consenting people. Because patriarchy devalues women and their sexuality, prostitution is one of the unsafest jobs you can have, and frankly I have better things to do than to outline all the ways it is unsafe from a guy who only brought it up to start shit and has no real interest in learning about it. Go read a book.
Join the dots.
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:15 PM   #38
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A pretty young girl can easily make 200/hour, which isn't huge. That would mean 100 hour long bookings for an annual wage of 20,000. That might be a lot of men, but most people work 100 hours in two weeks. Also there's nothing to say that it has to be the sole source of income. It would be quite easy to take a booking here and there to supplement the income from a full time job. There's a risk of violence but that didn't stop you.

I'm not necessarily saying it's empowering, but the idea that a woman must be forced to sell herself is erroneous.
200/h? You're fucking deluded, man.
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:17 PM   #39
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200/h? You're fucking deluded, man.
Where are you getting your info? Girls in brothels might only make 80, but some girls can make nearly 1000
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:19 PM   #40
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My assumption about how much a prostitute makes far outweights all that silly stuff you just said.

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Money is power, shouldn't the ability to earn a months wages in a few hours therefore be empowering?
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I'm not necessarily saying it's empowering, but the idea that a woman must be forced to sell herself is erroneous.
This is why nobody wants to talk to you.
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:23 PM   #41
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Of course he is deluded. His line of thought is merely this:
"Because I can theoretically think of conditions in which prostitution could be empowering, I applaud the current system of wage slavery, human trafficking, and sexist violence because I don't care about the empirical development of this industry nor will I care to actually empower the people in it. I'm just comfortable believing they ought to feel empowered already and I blame the victim if they do not adhere to my standards."
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:24 PM   #42
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It's not assumption
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:25 PM   #43
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It's not assumption
Yeah, it is, dude. You're fucking ignoring all the data of the average sex worker for your own standards of fancy escorts and then blaming those who don't adhere to your standards.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:29 PM   #44
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Where are you getting your info? Girls in brothels might only make 80, but some girls can make nearly 1000
Okay first off, there is a large gulf between luxury Las Vegas casino type prostitution and impoverished sex trafficked Eastern European girls working to save their own lives prostitution. If you're going to talk about the kinds of prostitutes who can rake in a bag off one john then you're on a totally different level to the prostitution argument that matters. As for 80 an hour in a brothel, like I said, you're deluded.

http://www.rapeis.org/discussion/dsexwork.html

9 euros p/h. And these are largely girls who don't have pimps taking the majority of the charge.
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:29 PM   #45
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200 euros an hour is totally worth being gang ***** or murdered.
Okay. So, are you going to address the part where you contradicted yourself to further your retarded argument?
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:32 PM   #46
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Of course he is deluded. His line of thought is merely this:
"Because I can theoretically think of conditions in which prostitution could be empowering, I applaud the current system of wage slavery, human trafficking, and sexist violence because I don't care about the empirical development of this industry nor will I care to actually empower the people in it. I'm just comfortable believing they ought to feel empowered already and I blame the victim if they do not adhere to my standards."
Hahaha no. It's just none of you seem to accept that prostitution, or escorting since we've used the word (escorting means selling 'intimate companionship' for money) can be an informed choice. I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but I think we can take is as a given that human trafficking and being forced to sell sex is an appalling thing?

Sex slavery is appalling because it's slavery not because it's sex.
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:37 PM   #47
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Hahaha no. It's just none of you seem to accept that prostitution, or escorting since we've used the word (escorting means selling 'intimate companionship' for money) can be an informed choice.
As if there's any real choice! I mean, who WOULDN'T want to be gang ***** for a grand an hour? Fuck yeah, sign me the fuck up for that job.

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Sex slavery is appalling because it's slavery not because it's sex.
Unless you get paid enough, AMIRITEBRO?
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:41 PM   #48
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It's just none of you seem to accept that prostitution, or escorting since we've used the word (escorting means selling 'intimate companionship' for money) can be an informed choice.
That's your problem right there.
All of us would like to legalize prostitution because the current legal systems blame the prostitute and not the john or even the pimp.
Those of us who don't want to legalize prostitution still want a Scandinavian approach in which the prostitute is not arrested but only the john.
I myself have been actively involved in the fight for sex workers rights in JUAREZ.

You, on the other hand, you're saying that the current system is alright because prostitution CAN be an informed choice, instead of fucking realizing that currently it RARELY IS and thus you should be doing something about it instead of saying that everything is all right just because your farfetched scenarios are possible in principle.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:43 PM   #49
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Okay first off, there is a large gulf between luxury Las Vegas casino type prostitution and impoverished sex trafficked Eastern European girls working to save their own lives prostitution. If you're going to talk about the kinds of prostitutes who can rake in a bag off one john then you're on a totally different level to the prostitution argument that matters.
That one is cut and dry, I don't need to organise my thoughts on it.

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As for 80 an hour in a brothel, like I said, you're deluded.

http://www.rapeis.org/discussion/dsexwork.html

9 euros p/h. And these are largely girls who don't have pimps taking the majority of the charge.
I didn't know that. I do know what the local brothels charge (got drunk with a friend once and went in, he paid for me to spend a very awkward half hour being completely unaroused), and I know it's a lot less than a lot of the independent escorts.

I don't know what's going on in amsterdam but it doesn't sound pretty.
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:48 PM   #50
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As if there's any real choice! I mean, who WOULDN'T want to be gang ***** for a grand an hour? Fuck yeah, sign me the fuck up for that job.
I think gang bangs tend to mostly happen on camera. A lot of them by, you know, dedicated professionals.

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Unless you get paid enough, AMIRITEBRO?
Money is obviously very important but the amount is arbitrary. The question is 'were they coerced by threat of violence or were there other ways to make money which were rejected in favour of this one?'

If it's the former in 95% of cases that's fucked up, but says nothing about the other 5%, which you seem to refuse to acknowledge.
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