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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 12-18-2012, 03:40 PM   #51
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You know what? Fine.

Entertain Miss Absynth. Have at it.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:49 PM   #52
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I'm saying there is something wrong with a person who is able to murder his mother, steal her weapons, and then proceed murder a bunch of kids and elementary school teachers, and you think this makes me an asshole. That's fucking outstanding.

Like, oh well, sometimes people just up and murder a bunch of kids. It's just one of those things you know, and not connected at all to untreated psychological trauma or issues. People just naturally go on murder-suicide sprees every once in a while, nothing we can do about it. Is that what we're supposed to take away here?
No one is saying it either has to be untreated mental illness (is there any evidence he's never received any treatment? His parents were loaded, access was not an issue anyway) or its just natural. Its not like that it was said, I don't know, that American society exasperates feelings of isolation and aggression? That you live in a society that is violent to its core, and as long as it clings to its violence, its going to have seemingly senseless violence?

You're far more concerned with chalking this up to mental illness and walking away and being right than you are about what actually causes America to have so much random violence, apart from any country like it in the world.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:08 PM   #53
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Good blog post on mass murderers and the benefits of white privilege: http://freethoughtblogs.com/blackske...d-mass-murder/
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:13 PM   #54
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you're far more concerned with chalking this up to mental illness and walking away and being right than you are about what actually causes america to have so much random violence, apart from any country like it in the world.
^^^this!!!
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:20 PM   #55
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I'm saying there is something wrong with a person who is able to murder his mother, steal her weapons, and then proceed murder a bunch of kids and elementary school teachers, and you think this makes me an asshole. That's fucking outstanding.

Like, oh well, sometimes people just up and murder a bunch of kids. It's just one of those things you know, and not connected at all to untreated psychological trauma or issues. People just naturally go on murder-suicide sprees every once in a while, nothing we can do about it. Is that what we're supposed to take away here?
Self harm doesn't mean that someone has a mental illness.

Self harm can be a symptom of mental illness, in the same way that shortness of breath can be a symptom of asthma.. but not every incidence of shortness of breath is due to asthma. Not every instance of shortness of breath IN A PERSON WITH ASTHMA is a symptom of asthma.

And actually, walking into a school and murdering a whole bunch of people doesn't mean that someone has a mental illness either. It means that there was something very very wrong, but that still doesn't mean that the person had a mental illness, or that if they did have a mental illness it doesn't mean that their actions were a result of that.

It's just not that simple.. and by trying to colour it as being that simple you are perpetuating the stigma that exists around mental illness.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:30 PM   #56
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Self harm doesn't mean that someone has a mental illness.

Self harm can be a symptom of mental illness, in the same way that shortness of breath can be a symptom of asthma.. but not every incidence of shortness of breath is due to asthma. Not every instance of shortness of breath IN A PERSON WITH ASTHMA is a symptom of asthma.

And actually, walking into a school and murdering a whole bunch of people doesn't mean that someone has a mental illness either. It means that there was something very very wrong, but that still doesn't mean that the person had a mental illness, or that if they did have a mental illness it doesn't mean that their actions were a result of that.

It's just not that simple.. and by trying to colour it as being that simple you are perpetuating the stigma that exists around mental illness.
Right, self-harm by itself could indicate any number of things. By itself it could be completely innocuous or a red flag (http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/f...igns-treatment). It's not uncommon for people to hurt themselves after suffering from physical or psychological trauma - that might not be a mental illness but it sure as hell falls under the mental health umbrella. In some cases it's a sign that something is wrong. When that's the case, failure to act can potentially be catastrophic.

I'm not saying that everyone who cuts or burns themselves or whatever, who also has difficulty forming healthy relationships with other people or empathizing/relating with them, and who has what is now starting to sound like a fucked up home life, and whatever else might come to light is likely to start shooting up schools, but it starts painting a picture.

I don't understand how anyone can look at this incident and not see a very troubled individual. Frankly I am astounded that this even needs to be discussed. If what happened last week is not a strong hint that someone has a distorted thought process, what is?

If we can accept that this kid had problems, why is it such a stretch to see his actions as the result of a distorted thought process? We wouldn't have a hard time connecting a person's suicide attempt to their suffering from chronic depression right? Of course not every person suffering from depression is a suicide risk, but when the signs start layering up intervention isn't out of line.

We don't know Lanza's mental state. I mean, we just don't have the information and it isn't like we can ask him. I can't understand how it is even possible to look at someone who carried out a horrible action like this, agree that it is fucked up, but be completely unwilling to connect a fucked up action to the guy's mental state.

Is it just the phrase "mental illness" that's giving you objection? Is there some other term that would be more acceptable?
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:34 AM   #57
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It's true that not everyone who suffers depression attempts suicide.. and it is also true that not everyone who attempts suicide suffers a mental illness.

What that person did was a symptom of a greater problem. I don't think that we should be labelling that problem as being mental illness unless we know that he suffered with a mental illness AND that it was the cause of his actions.

Correlation doesn't equate to causation.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:26 AM   #58
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I'm also struggling to see what was fucked up about his home life from what we know about him as a fact. He seems to have lived a better life than a lot of kids, a lot of mentally ill kids if the was in fact ill. According to the Guardian, he did get preventative care at his high school, he was assigned a psychologist not because they were afraid that he would be violent, but that his meekness would make him a victim: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...a-what-we-know that's a pretty damn good school that would do that.

I think this is already turning into a bad mothering accusation as well. There's a really triggering article I don't want to link, but its getting pretty popular in that this mother outs her son as having problems and can become violent and now she's afraid if she doesn't get better help and a diagnosis he'll be a mass murderer one day, and the article goes on to talk about what mothers (and shame on parents who divorce and make life even more stressful for them, but its mostly about the mothers) should look out for. And she basically is saying that the reason any mass murder has happened is because of lack of health care! All we know about his mom though was that she liked guns. And she made a comment once that hey, at least she's prepared in case something happens. She could have been driving him to a doctor every god damn day for all we know.

We seem to know now that in Columbine, a lot was going on there. It was really complicated and messed up. There was a lot of simple answers at first, it was Marilyn Manson, it was video games, it was the parents. Years later where we know a lot more and a lot has been said about it, we know it was a pretty complicated scenario. I really think Michael Moore had a lot to do with it, Bowling For Columbine was a good and successful film that showed multiple aspects and just as importantly, didn't let our memory of Columbine die after we just heard simple answers and walked away. It seems with other mass shootings, we forget quickly, and we don't have the follow up that we had with Columbine. Even on the heels of the Aurora shootings, where we KNOW access to mental health care wasn't an issue, we're throwing the same things out. Even after the Sikh temple shooting, the white supremacist aspect made us uncomfortable, so we forget. I can only hope that someday we'll have a clear analysis on what went wrong and how we need to change and we won't be too insecure to listen.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:29 AM   #59
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I know its tempting to fixate on mental illness, as these sorts of happenings seem to be unreasonable, un-rational, illogical and what have you, however, I think this is more of a case of correlation than causality. If mental illness were truly a main driving factor, then we would see a more diverse group of perpetrators than a bunch of white guys.

I think that this is a symptom of a wider problem, things like r*pe, domestic violence, and more mundane murders in general show the perpetrator seems to feel entitled to the victim's body. There are plenty of people who do not suffer from a diagnosed mental illness who hurt other people because they're mad or simply because they felt like the other person wasn't enough of a person to refrain from hurting.

I certainly understand the desire to separate ourselves from those who do heinous things. It is incredibly tempting to be like "hey, I'm not like that guy", then proceed to blame his behavior on a factor that you don't share with him. Its easy especially when that person is what people consider normal for the most part, a straight, white, dude, the kind of person who is held up as the standard for society. The thing is.. this is the kind of person that most of the people who commit heinous repeat or mass murderers have in common.

There are smaller symptoms that people of this demographic show, like a disregard for personal boundaries, a propensity for abusing people lower in the hierarchy they belong to, and our culture holds this sort of behavior up as what normal guys are supposed to do, how they're entitled to behave. The violence and murder is just taking this sort of attitude and behavior to an extreme.

So yeah, I guess my point is, perhaps we can stop blaming the mentally ill, and start admitting that people who shoot other people up because they're upset are acting on feelings of entitlement and failure to check that sense of entitlement against the rights of others not to be subject to the punishment they've decided to mete out to a world they feel has treated them unfairly.

Of course.. I've pretty much pulled this out of my ass, its my current working idea, after actually putting some thought into the idea since the last time it was discussed.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:20 AM   #60
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The aunt describes Nancy Lanza as a "doomsday prepper" stockpiling food and weaponry in case of apocalyptic societal breakdown. So on top of any mental issues Adam may have had, he's spent the last several years as a shut-in, in the exclusive care of a person suffering from paranoid delusions. Yeah, that is a healthy environment. Oh hey what are those http://www.maurilioamorim.com/wp-con...1/red-flag.jpg

It's a shame her emergency preparations didn't include a combination lock gun safe.

---

ApeDescendant, "I think that this is a symptom of a wider problem, things like r*pe, domestic violence, and more mundane murders in general show the perpetrator seems to feel entitled to the victim's body. There are plenty of people who do not suffer from a diagnosed mental illness who hurt other people because they're mad or simply because they felt like the other person wasn't enough of a person to refrain from hurting."

That doesn't sound like impulse control problems or inability to empathize with others? It's like we're all seeing psychological dysfunctions but refusing to call them such.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:37 AM   #61
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The aunt describes Nancy Lanza as a "doomsday prepper" stockpiling food and weaponry in case of apocalyptic societal breakdown. So on top of any mental issues Adam may have had, he's spent the last several years as a shut-in, in the exclusive care of a person suffering from paranoid delusions. Yeah, that is a healthy environment. Oh hey what are those http://www.maurilioamorim.com/wp-con...1/red-flag.jpg

It's a shame her emergency preparations didn't include a combination lock gun safe.
His aunt said that she said she liked to talk about preparations. I can't find a sources that says she also said she was stockpiling food. I have no seen a reliable source saying she was obsessive or fanatical about the end times. Since then everyone has been jumping on that as if that clearly means she's mentally unbalanced, when she is every much a victim as anyone else: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...rticle6513676/ This is quickly turning into a blame the mother scenario when its really the only blemish on her.

We know that the parents had him as a priority when going through the divorce process and Nancy committed to taking care of him as long as he needed it: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle6490674/ If he did have autism, that sounds like pretty normal caring parent behavior.

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That doesn't sound like impulse control problems or inability to empathize with others?
You mean Objectivism, Spencerism/Social Darwinism, Libertarianism? Lots of assholes believe we shouldn't have any empathy and they're malicious and selfish about it. And they seem to be doing remarkably well in American politics.

Have you been around a person with autism? Do you know what the "lack of empathy" means? I used to babysit an autistic boy, when my cat died I was curled up on the couch really sad. He seemed oblivious to that and just asked me about how the cat died and (this was the dead of winter where we couldn't dig) how we were going to bury him. He wasn't malicious about it, just something about a pet dying he didn't fully understand, he never lost a pet yet. When his dog died, he understood a lot better. He was still a sweet boy who was very gentle with everyone around him.

Since Lanza didn't leave a note but went through the trouble of destroying his harddrive, it was probably planned out, and not an "impulse control" problem.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:13 PM   #62
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The aunt describes Nancy Lanza as a "doomsday prepper" stockpiling food and weaponry in case of apocalyptic societal breakdown. So on top of any mental issues Adam may have had, he's spent the last several years as a shut-in, in the exclusive care of a person suffering from paranoid delusions. Yeah, that is a healthy environment. Oh hey what are those http://www.maurilioamorim.com/wp-con...1/red-flag.jpg

It's a shame her emergency preparations didn't include a combination lock gun safe.

---

That doesn't sound like impulse control problems or inability to empathize with others? It's like we're all seeing psychological dysfunctions but refusing to call them such.
This is still nothing other than heresay and none of this equates to mental illness.

As I said before, unless we know that he suffered with a mental illness AND that this was the direct cause of what happened, it's irresponsible to say that the reason for this was mental illness.

And it's harmful.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:27 PM   #63
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God damn it and if it's not been said; I have no idea how to react to the reaction of the NRA right now.

Fucking... they've been driving a no nonsense white people deserve to own guns to defend their property from the government horse shit for years. YEARS.

And NOW they want to talk limiting certain firearms. THE NRA, people. Are ready to talk about that.

Did they say anything when Columbine happened? No. Obviously it's okay if a bunch of spoiled ass teens get blown all to hell. Did they budge when that one dude shot up that college a couple years ago? No. Fuck those liberal college kids. They had it coming. And then the Dark Knight shootings. Hell no, they wont go. Oh and to basically throw the cake under the icing on this pile of shit bags; how many times have they ignored the constant violence of minorities in the USA due to guns from people in their neighborhood, to people NOT in their neighborhoods, and from the police. Not a fucking whisper.

Now a bunch of kids are dead.

You know what? Fuck this. Obama should be fucking hard as shit about gun control. If we can't help all Americans have an equal share in the protective force and violence that guns afford, then god damn it; it's time to lay down arms across the board. Yes, that includes the police and military as well.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:41 PM   #64
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I think I made my point already.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:12 PM   #65
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2329508.html
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:32 AM   #66
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Would any sane person want all dogs killed because one or two bit someone?

Just so this isn't taken out of context

Should the masses be punished due to the actions of only a few?
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:55 AM   #67
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I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested punishing anybody.

So, no. The answer to your question is no.

If some guy is drunk, it isn't a punishment to take his car keys away. It's an attempt to prevent him from ruining his life or that of someone else.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:23 PM   #68
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Would any sane person want all dogs killed because one or two bit someone?

Just so this isn't taken out of context

Should the masses be punished due to the actions of only a few?
Oh shut up.

We know what your situation is. YOU don't live in any real danger. Your desire to own guns is just that. A desire.

I am willing to bet that the most real threat you actually face is someone accidentally walking onto your little spit of land and THEY would be in more danger than you.

What could you possibly have that's worth taking that some random asshole would find it necessary to do anything to you? You got a cache' of diamonds we don't know about?
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:29 PM   #69
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What's you're point? The media latches onto anything before verifying it, as they reported she wanted to commit him and the update said that was totally untrue?
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:04 PM   #70
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Oh shut up.

We know what your situation is. YOU don't live in any real danger. Your desire to own guns is just that. A desire.

I am willing to bet that the most real threat you actually face is someone accidentally walking onto your little spit of land and THEY would be in more danger than you.

What could you possibly have that's worth taking that some random asshole would find it necessary to do anything to you? You got a cache' of diamonds we don't know about?
That just made my day XD

Funny thing is, I've never heard any real answer that made any kind of sense as to why civilians have the right to own military firearms. Every one I've heard has boiled down to them trying to over compensate for a certain part of the anatomy.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:26 PM   #71
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Ehh... I'll let the joke about "anatomy" slide. I'm none too keen on those kinds of jokes. But whatever.

Thing is; I get annoyed by Deadman chiming in, even if he's accidentally right in some aspects. He's just not important enough to consider some idealistic sense of fairness.

I think fairness should be based on material conditions, not idealism.

Take for example the rugged individualism sense of fairness. It makes perfect sense in an idealistic way that it's fair. It's totally fair. But in a material sense, there's nothing fair about it.

But you take progressive taxation for example. Idealists would argue that it's not fair because someone who has more has to give much much more than someone who aint got shit. Idealistically, it's not fair. But material experience will show that it's entirely fair.

Deadman has no grounds to argue for gun ownership. Until he starts talking about gun ownership to COMBAT private property instead of preserving it; then he'd have a case. But until then; no. He's just a privileged white dude defending an abstract idea with his sense of white security and white fairness.
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:08 PM   #72
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http://return2source.wordpress.com/2...n-gun-control/

I found this Oped to be an interesting read. Mainly, I think it'd be important for people like Deadman Walking and self identified liberals to read it.

It's interesting.

However it leaves for one or two conditions that I think are acceptable.

Either we must ban guns across the board and this includes the military and police as well (fat chance) or we need to re-examine and create policy BLATANTLY on class lines and not idealist lines.
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:45 PM   #73
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Very interesting read. I'm going to forward it to some friends as a food for thought that are on both sides of the debate. This has actually made me rethink my positions on firearms.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:35 PM   #74
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What's you're point? The media latches onto anything before verifying it, as they reported she wanted to commit him and the update said that was totally untrue?
Whether or not he was in the process of being committed against his will isn't really super relevant, but more and more sources are coming forward about the guy clearly being disturbed, and apparently for a long time.

The point is that Lanza had some severe mental and/or emotional problems, a line that some members here are desperately trying to avoid acknowledging for some strange reason.

"Nancy Lanza reportedly volunteered with kindergartners at the school for several years. Flashman said that Adam "believed she cared more for the children than she did for him." On the day of the massacre, Nancy was Adam's first victim. Flashman told Fox News that Nancy was also good friends with the school's principal and psychologist, both of whom were killed during the incident."

Yep, that's a balanced individual.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:16 PM   #75
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There is actually a vast difference between "severe mental and/or emotional problems" and mental illness. There is also a vast difference between having a mental illness and being an unbalanced individual.

The fact that you keep merging the idea of being unbalanced with having a mental illness demonstrates my points.
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