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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 12-25-2012, 11:19 AM   #101
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"Fucked up" is too vague to be a medical diagnosis. Perfectly healthy people can do "fucked up" things. What we know of mass and serial killers is that often, they are not insane. They know fully well what they are doing and that it is wrong. Some killers might have schizophrenia or what have you and through their delusions and confusions about reality harm themselves or others (although more likely that not, they won't), but mental illness does not automatically leads to violence, whether it is treated or not.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:18 PM   #102
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And that's the biggest lesson we should all learn about violence.

It is its own entity with several facets of its agency.

For example; if this had happened to WBC or Fox news or the Cato institute instead of a bunch of school children; I wouldn't just no bat an eye, I'd fucking drink to it and celebrate it.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:19 PM   #103
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@Jonathan - I don't think that anyone is disputing that this was something that was fucked up. I know that it being "fucked up" isn't something that I'm arguing about.

The issue I have with what you're saying is that you're equating the person's actions with the person having a mental illness.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/n...,5162396.story

"I still have to get ready to see how much of the neighborhood I can burn down and do what I do best: killing people." - mentally disturbed individual.

Hey look another fucked up person doing fucked up things.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:24 PM   #104
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What's your point?
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:26 PM   #105
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"Fucked up" is too vague to be a medical diagnosis. Perfectly healthy people can do "fucked up" things. What we know of mass and serial killers is that often, they are not insane. They know fully well what they are doing and that it is wrong. Some killers might have schizophrenia or what have you and through their delusions and confusions about reality harm themselves or others (although more likely that not, they won't), but mental illness does not automatically leads to violence, whether it is treated or not.
Sociopathy, not a mental illness or indicative of such?
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:29 PM   #106
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What's your point?
It's another example of a lot of people suffering because a mentally ill person didn't get the treatment they needed. You know, on top of him suffering and taking his own life.

But I guess murdering his grandmother with a hammer 30 something years ago and then trying to destroy everything around him, that's not a good enough indication of mental illness for gothic dot net.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:35 PM   #107
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Jon. You're just aching for an easy solution; aren't you.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:39 PM   #108
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Actually, doing the things that he did *isn't* indicative of mental illness. That's the point.

There is no evidence that this person was mentally ill.

Did you know that mental illness is diagnosed by looking for clusters of symptoms that occur within a specific time, that are outside of the cultural norm for that person, and that have no physical explanation to them.

For instance (and this is a really really oversimplified example), someone who hears voices twice a year isn't classed as mentally ill, someone who hears voices but is part of an Australian Aboriginal culture where visitations from deceased relatives is seen as a norm isn't classed as mentally ill, someone who hears voices because they have a tumour pressing on their auditory nerve isn't mentally ill...

You have no evidence to back up the idea that these people suffered from mental illness.

Also, do you realise that just because someone has a mental illness that illness doesn't dictate ALL the things that they do. So, in the same way that mental illness might not be the reason that they had a bath instead of a shower on Tuesday morning, mental illness might not be the reason that they parked in a No Parking zone on Wednesday day afternoon, mental illness might not be the reason that they kicked their neighbours dog on Friday night, and mental illness might not be the reason that they shot a bunch of people on Sunday morning.

Again - CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUATE TO CAUSALITY.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:44 PM   #109
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Sociopathy, not a mental illness or indicative of such?
Are you actually reading the things that are said to you, or just picking out things to argue with?

Sociopathy isn't a mental illness.

Sociopathy isn't a case of yes/no - it is measured on a spectrum and EVERYONE scores on the spectrum somewhere.. this includes you.

Most people who score high on a sociopathic spectrum DO NOT commit acts of outright physical violence against others.

Most people who do commit acts of outright physical violence against others DO NOT score unusually high on sociopathy markers.

Most criminal sociopaths commit "white collar" crimes because it's about winning the game, not about hurting people.
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:45 PM   #110
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You know he just wants to be right, don't you? You can tell he doesn't have an argument anymore when he starts to respond with one or two sentences that orient on the language of something you say, rather then you point you are trying to express.
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:58 PM   #111
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Yes, but I can only argue back because I can't shoot him..

Oh, wait...
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Old 12-25-2012, 07:42 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Miss Absynthe View Post
Are you actually reading the things that are said to you, or just picking out things to argue with?

Sociopathy isn't a mental illness.

Sociopathy isn't a case of yes/no - it is measured on a spectrum and EVERYONE scores on the spectrum somewhere.. this includes you.

Most people who score high on a sociopathic spectrum DO NOT commit acts of outright physical violence against others.

Most people who do commit acts of outright physical violence against others DO NOT score unusually high on sociopathy markers.

Most criminal sociopaths commit "white collar" crimes because it's about winning the game, not about hurting people.
Not only all that, but therapy can make sociopathy worse, I don't know of any mental illness who's most effective treatment consists of appealing to their sense of logic.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:53 AM   #113
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Just because you don't understand someone's motivation, doesn't mean they're mentally ill. It just means you don't know what's in their head.

Here are a couple articles and bits of information that may help.

http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php

And http://psychcentral.com/archives/violence.htm

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Predictors of serious/severe violence included a subset of these risk factors, including younger age, being male, having less than a high school education, history of violence, juvenile detention, perception of hidden threats from others, and being divorced or separated in the past year. This model had an AUC of 0.87 and was statistically significant, accounting for a quarter of the variance in serious/severe violent behavior.

Predictors of substance-related violence included younger age, being male, lower income, history of violence, juvenile detention, history of physical abuse by parent, substance dependence only, comorbid mental health and substance disorders, victimization in past year, and unemployed and looking for work in the past. This model had an AUC of 0.90 and was statistically significant, accounting for 30% of the variance in substance-related violence.

Across the 3 multivariate models, violence was not predicted by schizophrenia, major depression, or bipolar disorder alone.
I'll leave it at that because the second article is pretty long, but it is worth the read.

I wouldn't worry so much about this conversation if the idea itself did not predispose people to mistreat those who've suffered from mental illness. It wasn't that far in our past that those who did, also suffered deplorable conditions, "treatment" that was more akin to torture as well as eugenics laws that called for their mandatory sterilization as well as the sterilization of their siblings.

The idea that mental illness and violence are inextricably related are part of a harmful, untrue, ableist stereotype. Perpetuating that stereotype is dishonest, irresponsible and just plain wrong.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:13 AM   #114
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Actually, doing the things that he did *isn't* indicative of mental illness. That's the point.

There is no evidence that this person was mentally ill.


Murdered grandmother with hammer. Dead grandma by hammer is a pretty clear indication he was a sick man. This has to be trolling.

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Did you know that mental illness is diagnosed by looking for clusters of symptoms that occur within a specific time, that are outside of the cultural norm for that person, and that have no physical explanation to them.

For instance (and this is a really really oversimplified example), someone who hears voices twice a year isn't classed as mentally ill, someone who hears voices but is part of an Australian Aboriginal culture where visitations from deceased relatives is seen as a norm isn't classed as mentally ill, someone who hears voices because they have a tumour pressing on their auditory nerve isn't mentally ill...

You have no evidence to back up the idea that these people suffered from mental illness.
OK, so things like this are a terrible but solid example that more needs to be done. If guys like Lanza or now Spengler aren't classified as mentally ill, then there's a flaw with the classification. I don't understand how anyone can look at what these people are doing and not see very sick individuals. This is just pants-on-the-head absurd to refuse to acknowledge that, hey, these guys had something seriously wrong with them.

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Also, do you realise that just because someone has a mental illness that illness doesn't dictate ALL the things that they do. So, in the same way that mental illness might not be the reason that they had a bath instead of a shower on Tuesday morning, mental illness might not be the reason that they parked in a No Parking zone on Wednesday day afternoon, mental illness might not be the reason that they kicked their neighbours dog on Friday night, and mental illness might not be the reason that they shot a bunch of people on Sunday morning.

Again - CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUATE TO CAUSALITY.[/color]
So, in this example, mentally ill person sets fire with the intention of drawing in as many unrelated victims as possible to open fire on them. This action has nothing to do with his brain not working correctly.

Correlation does not equal causality does not mean every correlation is spurious! If I was saying that because the killer had a house that he set on fire, then it was home ownership that caused these murders it would be a ridiculous correlation/causation argument flaw. You're asking me to somehow ignore that a person's psychological makeup influences their behaviors.

The man was crazy, he did a crazy thing. Can anything be done about it? Maybe yes, maybe no, but this hand-wringing about whether or not he was mentally ill / psychologically damaged / fucked in the head is beyond the pale.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:45 PM   #115
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This article says it more articulately than I've been able to.

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Scapegoating, Stereotyping, & Projecting Won’t Make Us Safer
I grew concerned because in moments of violence and trauma (be they hours, days, or even generations) an un-psychological eye can easily project onto a person or group all the qualities it wants to split off and thereby scapegoat those people and groups. This happens when some folks project onto our gay brothers and sisters that they are more dangerous to the precious children; this happens when some project hostility onto our black brothers and sisters as if violence is not epidemic amongst all racial groups and in too many homes of people of all colors.

Examples are too numerous to enumerate here. The point is this: stereotyping and projecting can give a momentary feeling of security when we feel we have caught the beast, but projecting onto others is a form of violence not to be taken lightly. It harms. Psychology should not be used to feed our hunger for security in this way; psychology should make us more aware of the very tendency to project and stereotype and help us do no harm.

Mass Shooters Aren't Inherently Mentally Ill
In fact, only about 4% of the violence that happens in the United States can be attributed to mental illness (Friedman, 2012). In rare cases when the mentally ill are dangerous, they are actually far more dangerous to themselves than they are to others, and most dangerous after self to family members and people they know rather than the general public. In fact, alcohol consumption puts one at far higher risk for becoming violent than does mental illness, and yet, is that binge drinker stigmatized or feared as the mentally ill are?
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-myth-safety-8
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:08 PM   #116
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Murdered grandmother with hammer. Dead grandma by hammer is a pretty clear indication he was a sick man. This has to be trolling.
You'd be laughed out of the faculty if you tried to call that scientific thinking. Ape Descendant already provided ample evidence that mental illness does not by any means equate violence.

So I have a question, do you think every white colonist, every Nazi, every slave owner ever did the horrible things they did because they were mentally ill?

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OK, so things like this are a terrible but solid example that more needs to be done. If guys like Lanza or now Spengler aren't classified as mentally ill, then there's a flaw with the classification. I don't understand how anyone can look at what these people are doing and not see very sick individuals. This is just pants-on-the-head absurd to refuse to acknowledge that, hey, these guys had something seriously wrong with them.
Something wrong with them does not mean they are ill. Mental illness does not mean that you are fucked up or wrong or anything, it means you have an illness. To classify all senseless violence as the product of mental illness is not only stupid but ableist. Do you fear Ren for being autistic? Do you fear all depressed people because Klebold might have had depression? They're probably horrible people, yes. Mentally ill? Were you their doctor? Did they confide in you? Do they call you at home?

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So, in this example, mentally ill person sets fire with the intention of drawing in as many unrelated victims as possible to open fire on them. This action has nothing to do with his brain not working correctly.

Correlation does not equal causality does not mean every correlation is spurious! If I was saying that because the killer had a house that he set on fire, then it was home ownership that caused these murders it would be a ridiculous correlation/causation argument flaw. You're asking me to somehow ignore that a person's psychological makeup influences their behaviors.

The man was crazy, he did a crazy thing. Can anything be done about it? Maybe yes, maybe no, but this hand-wringing about whether or not he was mentally ill / psychologically damaged / fucked in the head is beyond the pale.
Mentally ill does not equal psychologically damaged does not equal fucked in the head. I'm mentally ill, but I don't consider myself psychologically damaged and I'm not fucked in the head. Assuming you're in good mental health, by virtue of being a white man you're far more likely to shoot up a school than I ever would be, and you don't think that's odd? If mental illness is all that is required, you'd see a lot more PoC or white women doing these things, but you don't.

I get it, you don't understand psychology at all, even after Ape Descendant landed down some pretty good evidence that you're absolutely wrong. Eric Harris was not mentally ill or insane, his profilers acknowledged that. He was probably a sociopath, but sociopathy isn't a mental illness. It has never been in the DSM, its used primarily in the justice system. There isn't any real treatment either, maybe you can wait it out and they'll grow up to have a different personality but otherwise, there's nothing to make anyone stop being a sociopath. No drugs for it, and therapy does more harm than good. Splenger might probably be a sociopath, and that probably shaped his personality and world view, but it does not automatically mean he's violent BECAUSE he's a sociopath, and it does not mean he is mentally ill.
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Old 12-26-2012, 04:47 PM   #117
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You'd be laughed out of the faculty if you tried to call that scientific thinking. Ape Descendant already provided ample evidence that mental illness does not by any means equate violence.

So I have a question, do you think every white colonist, every Nazi, every slave owner ever did the horrible things they did because they were mentally ill?
Of course not every member of a society, a political party, or a class did horrible things or were mentally ill. The members of said groups who committed grotesque abuses of other human beings, though, those guys were!

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Something wrong with them does not mean they are ill. Mental illness does not mean that you are fucked up or wrong or anything, it means you have an illness. To classify all senseless violence as the product of mental illness is not only stupid but ableist. Do you fear Ren for being autistic? Do you fear all depressed people because Klebold might have had depression? They're probably horrible people, yes. Mentally ill? Were you their doctor? Did they confide in you? Do they call you at home?
Fear is a poor choice of terminology. Any kind of illness is by definition a dysfunction, so of course it means there is "something wrong". What and how much of an impact it might have can vary.

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Mentally ill does not equal psychologically damaged does not equal fucked in the head. I'm mentally ill, but I don't consider myself psychologically damaged and I'm not fucked in the head. Assuming you're in good mental health, by virtue of being a white man you're far more likely to shoot up a school than I ever would be, and you don't think that's odd? If mental illness is all that is required, you'd see a lot more PoC or white women doing these things, but you don't.
Mental illness, psychological damage, personality disorders, trauma, all have different origins and manifestations. But they are all factors of an individual person's mental health.

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I get it, you don't understand psychology at all, even after Ape Descendant landed down some pretty good evidence that you're absolutely wrong. Eric Harris was not mentally ill or insane, his profilers acknowledged that. He was probably a sociopath, but sociopathy isn't a mental illness. It has never been in the DSM, its used primarily in the justice system. There isn't any real treatment either, maybe you can wait it out and they'll grow up to have a different personality but otherwise, there's nothing to make anyone stop being a sociopath. No drugs for it, and therapy does more harm than good. Splenger might probably be a sociopath, and that probably shaped his personality and world view, but it does not automatically mean he's violent BECAUSE he's a sociopath, and it does not mean he is mentally ill.
So, sociopathy has never been in the DSM. You know what was at one point? Being gay! The DSM is far from an inviolate authority. There's a reason it's coming up on the fifth major revision. It was wrong when it defined homosexuality as a mental illness back in an earlier edition and I'm sure it will continue to become less wrong in the future.

"Might probably be a sociopath" - haha, yeah, like there's a realistic scenario where he wasn't. Maybe it was actually a very sophisticated ruse in order to fool people into believing a character he was playing. He was actually a gentle, caring soul (when not holding a hammer).
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:37 PM   #118
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So, Jonathan, do you even have a point you're trying to get to aside from "people who do fucked up shit are mentally ill"? What is the purpose of all this clumsy flailing and ignoring data that shows that violence shows a stronger correlation with those who are male and those who abuse alcohol than those who only have diagnosed mental illnesses?

What are you trying to prove? What sort of action are you proposing?
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:38 PM   #119
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It makes him feel safer to think that violence is perpetrated by the mentally ill.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:05 PM   #120
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Of course not every member of a society, a political party, or a class did horrible things or were mentally ill. The members of said groups who committed grotesque abuses of other human beings, though, those guys were!
Well I'm some glad you weren't around during the Nuremburg trials to tell everyone to let them go, they're just mentally ill and the poor souls simply lacked access to mental healthcare.

Terrible things were encouraged, permissable, and normal during different times in history. In ancient Rome, it would be totally normal and expected for older men to **** little boys and slaves. It was totally acceptable and normal for white men to **** their slaves not too long ago. Did every single white man who did such things mentally ill, and did so because they were mentally ill? Were all our ancestors who colonized North America mentally ill? Are entire nations mentally ill when they go to war with their neighbour? When lynching was normal, did the whole town become mentally ill?

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Fear is a poor choice of terminology. Any kind of illness is by definition a dysfunction, so of course it means there is "something wrong". What and how much of an impact it might have can vary.
I don't understand how this addresses my question. And you still haven't answered my other question; why are middle to upper class white guys who have access to mental health care far more likely to commit mass murder than PoC, who are far less likely to get mental health care, and/or women?

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So, sociopathy has never been in the DSM. You know what was at one point? Being gay! The DSM is far from an inviolate authority. There's a reason it's coming up on the fifth major revision. It was wrong when it defined homosexuality as a mental illness back in an earlier edition and I'm sure it will continue to become less wrong in the future.
Its not just the DSM, its just simply not used as a mental health diagnosis, its used in the criminal system. And regardless, if you think the DSM is wrong because you, the armchair psychologist says so, why are you trying to argue that people have better access to mental healthcare which you apparently think is wrong? Why are you trying to use mental illness as an excuse for white violence when you know so little about mental illness?

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"Might probably be a sociopath" - haha, yeah, like there's a realistic scenario where he wasn't. Maybe it was actually a very sophisticated ruse in order to fool people into believing a character he was playing. He was actually a gentle, caring soul (when not holding a hammer).
Again, sociopath doesn't mean "a person does fucked up things", it has a criteria that needs to be met. Some killers who do terrible things are sociopaths, others are not. Besides, apparently it wasn't so bad that he only got manslaughter, is your justice system pathological for thinking that's not such a serious kind of murder?
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:15 PM   #121
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It makes him feel safer to think that violence is perpetrated by the mentally ill.
Probably, but if he gave it more than five minutes thought it would probably make him feel way less safe; society is violent to the core. Therefore, we're all mentally ill, those with power even more so, and the inmates are running the asylum.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:54 PM   #122
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Yes.. but that involves thought.

I'm increasingly becoming convince with the theory that someone put forward (I think it may have been ApeDescendant?) that a lot of the issues stem from a sense of privilege and the idea that one can simply play out their own entitlement upon the bodies of those around them.

Which intrigues me, because in a way this is exactly what Jonathan is doing here..
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:54 PM   #123
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But... but look at all the science we brought. Its a veritable science picnic!!

I understand the thinking behind his stance, its the same sort of thinking that had me making similar assertions a few months ago.

Between some serious reading on the topic and an epiphany due to an awesome documentary about horror flicks (Nightmares in Red, White and Blue) there was this section on anti-heroes who wrought bloody vengeance or pushed their own unique morality on the world through violent slaughter. That shit isn't about mental illness, that shit is people feeling like it is their right to hurt others if they don't follow whatever warped code has been set for them.

Dragging people with MI into this debate only serves to set us all back as it isn't the main problem. All it does is re-enforce the stigma on an already marginalized group of people, and the problem only becomes more alarming when we have powerful organizations saying shit like this: (emphasis is mine)

Quote:
The NRA posed the question 'How many more copycats are waiting…A dozen more killers? A hundred? More? How can we possibly even guess how many, given our nation's refusal to create an active national database of the mentally ill?'
Here's the full article from NAMI if you'd like to read it. http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Sec...ntentID=148650
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:08 PM   #124
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Why are you trying to use mental illness as an excuse for white violence when you know so little about mental illness?
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:54 PM   #125
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But... but look at all the science we brought. Its a veritable science picnic!!
Exactly.

So, if he didn't feel that it was his RIGHT to be listened to, and that we should be shutting the fuck up and making space for him to express HIS ideas (no matter how fallacious those ideas are), he would probably look at the science, look at the ideas that have been brought into this thread, and admit that he's wrong.

But.. he's entitled to be right!!
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