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Old 05-19-2011, 04:35 PM   #76
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OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD!!! WE ARE ACTUALLY HAVING A CONVERSATION ABOUT LITERATURE! IN THE LITERATURE FORUM!!!

SQUEEEE!

I reiterate: I am SO fucking proud of you Chris_Morey. You have come such a long way.

Anyway, on Stephen King:

Once again: I am not a fan. From what I have read (granted not much) I find his prose abominable, and his characters cliche'd and uninteresting. Granted I'm basing this opinion off one book (Cell) and the various Stephen King movies I've seen (IT, Rose Red, The shining remake, that vampire one, Pet Cemetery, The Langoliers etc.)
I'm delirious with gravol so humour me. I get super mad at Stephen King when I spot cliches, and he writes so much crap, but The Shining novel was really good, so was Misery and to an extent Dolores Claiborne (I hate how in his books abusive husbands/boyfriends are just eeeeeevil to the core, and one dimensional, but otherwise its good) Duma Key was good although a few things were reeeaaally predictable (like who's going to die), and his short story Everything's Eventual is probably my favourite short story ever. He's by no means my favourite author and I think with him, he gets an idea and just rolls with it even if its a repeat, I think he just really enjoys writing, so sometimes its good, and sometimes its like he just wrote it for the hell of it.

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My roommate keeps telling me that I need to just write some overly simplistic/formulaic bullshit to appeal to the average idiot, but I'm not convinced. My opinion on the matter is that Marketing is what made twilight what it was, and luck got it published in the first place. Shit without luck and marketing is just shit at the end of the day.
If I ever find the time I'm going to try this out, and try to make a romance story between a girl and a elf, and make elves the new vampires.

PS. Desp, I wouldn't recommend The Stand for you. It gets extremely preachy half way through. Think of what a tolerant hippie I am and trying to imagine how preachy it has to be for me to be pissed off and give up the book.
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Old 05-19-2011, 05:12 PM   #77
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I've read (and finished) both the extended and regular editions of The Stand and I never found it to be too preachy at all. In fact, many King fans consider it his best work (though it's not his favorite of his own).

Thank you Desp, we will be flying out to New York in June to accept the award, it's very exciting!

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I'm delirious with gravol so humour me. I get super mad at Stephen King when I spot cliches, and he writes so much crap, but The Shining novel was really good, so was Misery and to an extent Dolores Claiborne (I hate how in his books abusive husbands/boyfriends are just eeeeeevil to the core, and one dimensional, but otherwise its good) Duma Key was good although a few things were reeeaaally predictable (like who's going to die), and his short story Everything's Eventual is probably my favourite short story ever. He's by no means my favourite author and I think with him, he gets an idea and just rolls with it even if its a repeat, I think he just really enjoys writing, so sometimes its good, and sometimes its like he just wrote it for the hell of it.



If I ever find the time I'm going to try this out, and try to make a romance story between a girl and a elf, and make elves the new vampires.

PS. Desp, I wouldn't recommend The Stand for you. It gets extremely preachy half way through. Think of what a tolerant hippie I am and trying to imagine how preachy it has to be for me to be pissed off and give up the book.
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Old 05-19-2011, 05:40 PM   #78
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Though Chris has been effectively integrated, I still stand by my brand.

Chris, now that you seem to be a part of this community, I think you're an asshole.

Business as usual.
I understand, you're secretly in love with me but will express it through insincere distaste.

I agree to your terms.
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Old 05-19-2011, 06:00 PM   #79
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I've read (and finished) both the extended and regular editions of The Stand and I never found it to be too preachy at all. In fact, many King fans consider it his best work (though it's not his favorite of his own).
The first half was fantastic. I'd compare it to Anne Rice's Servant Of The Bones. Wonderful beginning! Okay...we're going to get religious now? Okay, I'll roll with it...wait, seriously? SERIOUSLY? Like, bad things happen to cool characters because they weren't righteous enough or whatever? He takes an Old Testament road with it and thats fine, but there's little moral grey area there, you're either on the good side or the bad side, and the god of the good side is one harsh motherfucker.

I should also note it was only a few months ago I got over halfway through the uncut edition, and its one of his older books so I can't criticize it too much for it, but when you identify a Stephen King trope it fucking irritates me whenever I come across it now. Like the Magical Negro trope. The Stand has quite a few examples of that. So, there's shit like that combined with the very clumsy religious stuff.
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:05 PM   #80
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There's not that many tropes in The Stand and the ones that are there are largely character based. You do realize we all have our own personal tropes right?

I wouldn't call it very clumsy religious stuff. I partially agree with you, I'm not huge on the religious overtones, but overall I think it's handled pretty well.

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The first half was fantastic. I'd compare it to Anne Rice's Servant Of The Bones. Wonderful beginning! Okay...we're going to get religious now? Okay, I'll roll with it...wait, seriously? SERIOUSLY? Like, bad things happen to cool characters because they weren't righteous enough or whatever? He takes an Old Testament road with it and thats fine, but there's little moral grey area there, you're either on the good side or the bad side, and the god of the good side is one harsh motherfucker.

I should also note it was only a few months ago I got over halfway through the uncut edition, and its one of his older books so I can't criticize it too much for it, but when you identify a Stephen King trope it fucking irritates me whenever I come across it now. Like the Magical Negro trope. The Stand has quite a few examples of that. So, there's shit like that combined with the very clumsy religious stuff.
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Old 05-20-2011, 01:56 AM   #81
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MissCheyenne, not all of his work is masterful, but his ratio of good work to bad work has been pretty solid recently. There was a time when his work was sagging (shortly after the accident) but since then things have picked up. I'd like to know which of his recent work you would consider "pumped out bullshit."
I didn't specifically mean that his newer works were bullshit. I meant in terms of his overall production that SOME of it is utter crap. I can see how you may have misinterpretated what I said though. Forgive me, I'm running on less than two hours sleep a night at the minute so I'm not as sharp and devastatingly witty as usual.
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Old 05-20-2011, 07:42 AM   #82
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Enjoy NYC Chris, it's a great town, and watch out for bedbugs, 90% of the Manhattan hotels have them.

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There's not that many tropes in The Stand and the ones that are there are largely character based. You do realize we all have our own personal tropes right?
While Tropes are not cliche's that doesn't mean that it's always the best idea to reach for a magical blackman.

I can definitely identify recurring tropes and themes in my own work, most if not all writers have a great deal of unity between works, and some tend to just retell the same story over and over again, and this isn't always bad.

The problem with King's use of these tropes and Cliche's is that they aren't particularly well-developed (at least in my experience). When I was reading Cell I noticed that the main character's profession (comic-book artist) was horribly underdeveloped (If you read my previous complaint, I really harped on the fact that he had simply bought his son a Spiderman comic, not The Spectacular Spider-man, or The Amazing Spiderman, or Holy Shit! It's Spiderman just spiderman.

That's lazy, a character who works in comics is going to have a passion FOR comics, just as I have a work in theatre, I have a passion for theatre. If I wrote a play where a character is an actor, I'm not just going to say "He was in the Merchant of Venice" I'm going to say something like "X played Shylock in a Dinner theater adaptation of the Merchant of Venice, it was billed as a Moft Excellent Time but this was largely lost on the legions of senior citizens who thought it was a typo and overall, were more interested in their fried-chicken and comparing X to Al Pachino, who had done the role to some acclaim in Central Park the summer before..."

The use of Tropes in and of themselves is not bad, but you have to REALLY be good to pull off some discredited/cliche'd tropes (like the afore-mentioned magical negro) to any sort of success.
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Old 05-20-2011, 12:07 PM   #83
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Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say the Magical Negro is a trope in King's writing, I think it's a certain level of oversensitivity. Yes, there are African Americans with special powers in six out of his seventy-five something novels. However, there are also *gasp* Caucasian folks who have special powers in many of those books as well. So, perhaps people with special powers is actually one of King's tropes? Or, perhaps, elements of the fantastic and dark! In fact, I think putting words on a page is a King trope... should I keep going?

Desp you're right about the comic book artist profession being largely underdeveloped for Clay, and many folks dog on Cell, but hell, I found it entertaining. When I set that book down I didn't think it was brilliant, nor did I think it would stick with me for the rest of my life, but I did have a fun ride with it, and sometimes that's all I really want.

Again, it's hard to generalize King's work when you've only read one of his books. Yes he has habits, yes he has reoccurring themes and ideas like any human writer has, but the fact of the matter is he's still one of the best at what he does, despite some low points in his career.
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Old 05-21-2011, 07:42 AM   #84
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Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say the Magical Negro is a trope in King's writing, I think it's a certain level of oversensitivity. Yes, there are African Americans with special powers in six out of his seventy-five something novels. However, there are also *gasp* Caucasian folks who have special powers in many of those books as well. So, perhaps people with special powers is actually one of King's tropes? Or, perhaps, elements of the fantastic and dark! In fact, I think putting words on a page is a King trope... should I keep going?

It's a trope in anyone's writing
. In my entire body of work I have never written a magical negro, but if I DID it would fit the Magical Negro trope, and I damn well better do it well or I deserve to be criticized for it.

(Besides, the Magical Negro trope is more than just being black and magical (in fact, neither of those characteristics are required), you just have to be a minority, serve an advisory/mentorship role in the story and NOT save the day (that's reserved for the white Main characters).

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Desp you're right about the comic book artist profession being largely underdeveloped for Clay, and many folks dog on Cell, but hell, I found it entertaining. When I set that book down I didn't think it was brilliant, nor did I think it would stick with me for the rest of my life, but I did have a fun ride with it, and sometimes that's all I really want.
Fair enough. We may want different things out of books. Usually, I'm not looking for mindless entertainment in my novels, I need something deeper if I'm going to devote the time to read. If I want a popcorn plot, I'm going to watch a movie and eat popcorn.

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Again, it's hard to generalize King's work when you've only read one of his books. Yes he has habits, yes he has reoccurring themes and ideas like any human writer has, but the fact of the matter is he's still one of the best at what he does, despite some low points in his career.
Depends what we're defining as "Best" I will say that he's one of the most read authors in the world, but I really wouldn't consider him one of the "best" writers in the world in terms of skill (though once again, perhaps this opinion is un/under educated). Still I think most would agree that his work doesn't really compare to Vonnegut or Gaiman or Pratchett or Douglas Adams etc.
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Old 05-21-2011, 08:06 AM   #85
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I've read Stephen King books. Even "good" ones like It, Carrie, and the Shining. And I have to say, I still don't think he's that good. His payoffs are lame and/or stupid, he abuses cliches, and he recycles his ideas constantly (ie: unexplained child psychics of plot convenience).
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Old 05-21-2011, 01:02 PM   #86
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I've read Stephen King books. Even "good" ones like It, Carrie, and the Shining. And I have to say, I still don't think he's that good. His payoffs are lame and/or stupid, he abuses cliches, and he recycles his ideas constantly (ie: unexplained child psychics of plot convenience).
You consider Carrie one of his good ones? Most King fans (and I know a lot of them) consider that on the lower end of King's work. His payoffs aren't always the best, and yes sometimes he uses cliches, but not always.

Desp, what King is one of the best in the world at is creating fully realized, three-dimensional characters that you fall in love with (or despise) by the time the book is over (or they die). For example, in The Shining there's one hundred pages of characterization before they even get to the Overlook hotel. And yes, Cell is not the greatest example of his character development skills.

I've read my fair share of Gaiman, and it's very hard to compare King to Pratchett, but it's not that King doesn't compare to those authors, he has a very different style, very different visions. They are all very talented in different ways, but Stephen King wouldn't have risen the way he did over other great authors at the time (like Peter Straub) if he wasn't great at what he does.
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Old 05-21-2011, 01:42 PM   #87
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I suppose I'll give you that. While sales alone aren't what I would consider an adequate gauge for skill (Otherwise I would have to conclude that Stephanie Meyer, Daniel Steel, and the like are particularly talented) I will say that there's only so far and so long marketing can push a work before it has to stand on its own merits. King HAS earned himself a place in history as one of our era's greatest horror writers. Will his work have enough staying power to allow him to become a "classic" author like Poe and Lovecraft? I suppose we'll have to wait and see.
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Old 05-23-2011, 09:20 AM   #88
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You consider Carrie one of his good ones? Most King fans (and I know a lot of them) consider that on the lower end of King's work. His payoffs aren't always the best, and yes sometimes he uses cliches, but not always.
I used quotes around "good" because that's what King fans tell me to read when I say "Stephen King sucks".

I notice you don't seem to have a problem with him endlessly recycling characters, plot points, etc. to the point that you'd think new ideas are the leading cause of carbon emissions.

His payoffs aren't the best? You're understating it a bit, I think, as a lot of Stephen King books have payoffs that are plot-smashingly dumb. It was a lot scarier when It was a shape-shifting clown, instead of a gigantic, cosmic demon spider that is the enemy of the giant god-turtle that created the world after a particularly bad bout of indigestion. The fact that Stephen King thinks this idea is good enough that he's made it a part of his canon and repeats this plot point time and again just goes to show you how stupendously silly Stephen King can get.
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:11 AM   #89
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I thought King books were basically other authors who had a good book, but they slapped King's name on the book to boost sales.
Not all of them, but yes as far as I know the man does use ghost writers (which would explain the huge variances in quality people have reported from book to book).
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Old 05-31-2011, 12:39 PM   #90
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Thumbs up The Creeping Kelp by William Meikle now available!

The ghost writers thing is just a rumor. Yes, his books have variance in their quality, but every author has work that isn't as strong as their usual, or much better than their usual, it's really not that far fetched.

And as much as I know how much this will annoy you guys...




Dark Regions Press is happy to announce that the new novel The Creeping Kelp by William Meikle is now available for preorder in both our leather-bound signed by both author and artist Deluxe Thirteen Hardcover with slipcase edition and 100 Signed and Numbered Limited Hardcover edition!

PREORDER SPECIAL: Order the 100 Signed and Numbered Limited Hardcover while its still in the preorder stage and get it at $5 off the cover price!


Click here to read more about or order The Creeping Kelp by William Miekle!


Some seaweed, a jellyfish and some material brought back from the Peabodie expedition to Antarctica. An innoccuous enough blend you might think. But when a storm in the North Atlantic frees a sample that has been dormant inside an old wreck, the new creature finds that it is hungry. Our plastics-oriented society has given it an abundant supply of food... more than enough for it to grow, and build, and spread.

Can anyone escape the terror that is... THE CREEPING KELP?


Praise for William Meikle:

Aims for pure entertainment ... and hits the mark.
- Simon Morden, VECTOR

The author is relentless; just when you catch your breath, something new and exciting happens, sending you spinning into another part of the adventure, and keeping you flipping pages to see what's next.
- David Wilbanks, Horrorworld

... solid prose commands attention right from the start and carries the reader straight through to the climax.
- Garrett Peck for Cemetery Dance #40

...descriptions so vivid you can almost hear the clash of the swords and smell the blood.
- Murder and Mayhem Bookclub

Anyone who's fond of a good story and a good piece of writing will enjoy Meikle's clever conceits, interesting and earthy characters, and well turned prose.
- Dread Central

Meikle is a writer that can grace the page with words of beauty whilst twisting a nightmare into grotesque shapes before your eyes.
- Len Maynard and Mick Sims

William Meikle's short stories and novels are shining examples of what is missing in horror fiction today: atmospheric in style, old-school in character, with an intriguing story to be told. Utmost use is made of the author's native Scotland in many of his tales, and his forays into the Cthulhu Mythos stories are original in concept, building on Lovecraft's works.
- David Wynn, Mythos Books


Click here to read more about or order The Creeping Kelp by William Miekle!


About the author



William Meikle is a Scottish writer with over a dozen novels published in the genre press and over 200 short story credits in thirteen countries. He is the author of the ongoing Midnight Eye series among others, and his work appears in a number of professional anthologies. His ebook THE INVASION has been as high as #2 in the Kindle SF charts. He lives in a remote corner of Newfoundland with icebergs, whales and bald eagles for company. In the winters he gets warm vicariously through the lives of others in cyberspace, so please check him out at http://www.williammeikle.com

Dedication:

To the memory of John Wyndham, H P Lovecraft, H G Wells and all the keepers of the flame who have come after them.

Acknowledgements:

With thanks to Steve Price at Generation Next Publications for all the hard work he puts in that's never seen. But it is appreciated.


Publisher contact

Dark Regions Press
P.O. Box 1264
Colusa, CA, 95932
http://www.DarkRegions.com

Contact us directly with any questions or comments at:
support AT darkregionspress.com
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Old 05-31-2011, 01:52 PM   #91
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And as much as I know how much this will annoy you guys...


O.O

...

BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

okay...okay, I'm good...I...



Snerk!

BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

OhMyGodOhMyGod ROFL. ROFLMAO! LOL! LOOOL! LULZ! LULZSPLOSION!

Whew...

The Creeping Kelp. The Creeping Kelp.

I LOVE you Chris Morey. DOn't ever change. You are the light of my life. When I saw that cover, I laughed so hard I broke my chair, then fell out.

You complete Me.

The Creeping Kelp.
Ah, Me.

One more time:




This will never get old.
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Old 05-31-2011, 01:56 PM   #92
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...And just when I thought it couldn't get any better. Oh Jesus Name!





Where do you FIND these people Chris Morey? Do you grow them in vats?
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Old 05-31-2011, 02:02 PM   #93
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This explains so much.
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Old 05-31-2011, 02:53 PM   #94
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I'm glad you're laughing, I hope you realize that's the INTENDED response? It's a humorous, campy horror novel.
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Old 05-31-2011, 02:56 PM   #95
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...And just when I thought it couldn't get any better. Oh Jesus Name!

Where do you FIND these people Chris Morey? Do you grow them in vats?
Actually, William Meikle is a best selling e-book seller. Look him up. You're right though, he is a white man with facial hair, clearly the guy behind fish sticks.
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Old 05-31-2011, 03:05 PM   #96
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I'm glad you're laughing, I hope you realize that's the INTENDED response? It's a humorous, campy horror novel.
I would hope so. I can't see anyone making it through the pitch meeting with a straight-face.

Man, I think I'm just going to start using that image to win arguments, like if I don't feel like responding I'll just be like: LOOK AT THIS. THIS EXISTS.

My opponents will never recover.

The Creeping Kelp.
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Old 05-31-2011, 03:09 PM   #97
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That's actually a great idea, will you include the link when you do that as well please?

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I would hope so. I can't see anyone making it through the pitch meeting with a straight-face.

Man, I think I'm just going to start using that image to win arguments, like if I don't feel like responding I'll just be like: LOOK AT THIS. THIS EXISTS.

My opponents will never recover.

The Creeping Kelp.
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Old 05-31-2011, 03:10 PM   #98
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They read like press releases. You do know what press releases are, right?

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Look, just because you disguised everyone's beloved fishsticks man by shaving his cheeks and putting him in a red coat doesn't mean we can't see through your bullshit.

This does explain a lot. Especially since a lot of your posts read like a nutritional information chart on the side of a fishstick's box.
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Old 05-31-2011, 03:55 PM   #99
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How did you discover my real name?
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Old 05-31-2011, 03:58 PM   #100
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This thread is making me hungry.
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