Ireland among most complicit in rendition

[Morrigan_Dubh]

A new European Parliament report has claimed Ireland is one of the most complicit countries in the EU in allowing CIA rendition flights to use its airspace and airports.

According to the document, more than 1,000 covert CIA flights have crossed European airspace or stopped over at European airports. Germany and Britain also came criticism for the alleged collusion.

"Instead of highlighting ways in which extraordinary rendition could be prevented in the future, the report indulges in political point-scoring."
Minister for Foreign Affairs Dermot Ahern

The renditions have taken alleged terrorists all over the world for interrogation - including to countries not bound by international human rights code in the treatment of suspects.

The report calls on EU member states to oppose the use of "diplomatic assurances" on torture in returning terrorism suspects. The Government repeatedly used the defence in the face of opponents calling for inspection of US planes or a ban on the US military use of Shannon.

Minister for Foreign Affairs Dermot Ahern said the report recognised that prisoners were not transferred through Irish territory as part of an extraordinary rendition operation.

"Instead of highlighting ways in which extraordinary rendition could be prevented in the future, the report indulges in political point-scoring. The suggestion, for example, that Ireland should institute a ban on all CIA-operated aircraft is extraordinary, especially given that Ireland is the only one of 27 member states to which this recommendation is addressed," he said.

"Given that this recommendation was inserted at the behest of an Irish MEP, I can only conclude that it was intended to serve partisan purposes.

However, Roger Cole of the Peace and Neutrality Alliance said the Government had refused to seek evidence that the CIA flights were passing through Irish territory. "Ignorance of the law is not a defence," he added.

Mr Cole said although the Government had been given assurances by US officials, there had to be a previous record that the sources were reliable and accurate. He called on the Government to end the use of Shannon by the US aircraft.

The European Parliament inquiry committee, which visited London late last year to take evidence, singles out the United Kingdom, Italy and Poland as demonstrating "very great reluctance to fully co-operate" with the MEPs.

An earlier Council of Europe inquiry report last year said that the CIA ran a "global spider's web" of such flights, with European countries acting as staging posts.

[ArtificialOne]

I know this is going to stir up controversy... But I have to wonder on where the eu's at when it comes to tracking down the war criminals after the whoe bosnia thing? An that the eu wants to ban us cosmetics because of carcinogens... even though the same chemicals are in the ones made in europe? ... To many points to make...

I happen to believe europe is groping at straws and trying to find reasons to bully and upset the US.

It's also funny that they like to hide financial criminals and nazi money in switzerland.. How long did it take switzerland to fess up and release files and money???

Maybe if eu intelligence was better we wouldn't need to do rendition..

[Morrigan_Dubh]

Originally Posted by ArtificialOne

Maybe if eu intelligence was better we wouldn't need to do rendition..

Please explain this comment to me like I was a child.

[ArtificialOne]

if..pre 9/11 they paid more attention to radicals and hence passed on info (investigating and tracking it as far as possible... then passing the info) you wouldn't need to do rendition.

Unfortunately many countries have a bad habit of letting bad people go once questioned or even tried. (See indonesia and the Bali bombers).

Also, where was the outrage when the Isreali massad was running around kidnapping people all over the world? Is it only bad when the US doe's it and no one else?

I know the US isn't perfect and some politicians, policy, and people missbehave overseas, but you have to question some of the wierd laws thatt the EU is coming out with. (ie. The makeup law about carcinogens, taxes on cigarets, etc..) Seeing as most of these products that are also made in the eu contain the very same ingrediants etc. The only motive has to be monitary. Of course wasn't the EU created to compete against US, China, Australia etc, trade?

Just my personal opinion that the EU is cracking down on the US as part of an economic and propaganda manuever to prop the organization up. Nothing unites people like hate (ie Hitler and the Jews, Stallin and the world, Kim in North korea vs the US.....)

[Morrigan_Dubh]

Originally Posted by ArtificialOne

if..pre 9/11 they paid more attention to radicals and hence passed on info (investigating and tracking it as far as possible... then passing the info) you wouldn't need to do rendition.

Why is there a need for rendition, anyway? Do you understand what rendition is?

Unfortunately many countries have a bad habit of letting bad people go once questioned or even tried. (See indonesia and the Bali bombers).

Bad people? How can you know they were bad people if they hadn't been questioned or tried?

Also, where was the outrage when the Isreali massad was running around kidnapping people all over the world? Is it only bad when the US doe's it and no one else?

LMAO here. Israel's biggest ally is the US!

{quote]I know the US isn't perfect and some politicians, policy, and people missbehave overseas, but you have to question some of the wierd laws thatt the EU is coming out with. (ie. The makeup law about carcinogens, taxes on cigarets, etc..) Seeing as most of these products that are also made in the eu contain the very same ingrediants etc. The only motive has to be monitary. Of course wasn't the EU created to compete against US, China, Australia etc, trade?[/quote]

The EU is different from the ECC.

Just my personal opinion that the EU is cracking down on the US as part of an economic and propaganda manuever to prop the organization up. Nothing unites people like hate (ie Hitler and the Jews, Stallin and the world, Kim in North korea vs the US.....)

But the report stated in the article is that many countries within the EU complied with the US. If anyone is cracking down on anything, it's the European Parliament cracking down on the EU countries.

You don't seem to have a very solid grasp on this subject. Your ignorance bores me*yawns*

[ArtificialOne]

Typical left view.. ignore the facts.... repute ignorance if any other view is put forth.. yawn... euro trash bores me....

[ArtificialOne]

re read my post... I explain why rendition is ness if you care to read...
And so what if Isreal is an american ally.. so is australia? whats your point????
Isreali's were doing and prolly still are taking people in europe???? But why is it only the US that the eu is looking at?I geuss you don't like stuff like facts....

[Morrigan_Dubh]

Originally Posted by ArtificialOne

re read my post... I explain why rendition is ness if you care to read...

Yes you said it was "ness" because of the "eu". But why is it necessary to fly suspects from the US to foreign countries in order to have them interrogated?

And so what if Isreal is an american ally.. so is australia? whats your point????
Isreali's were doing and prolly still are taking people in europe???? But why is it only the US that the eu is looking at?I geuss you don't like stuff like facts....

I guess the US gets a lot of, um, mean things said about it because it seem that the US considers itself to be the example of the perfect county, a role model for all other countries to follow, and, well, No. 1.

But sucks as much as any country.

[ArtificialOne]

I never said it was best and most of that "we're the best" junk comes from stupid celebs or movies. I, in my opinion think it's the best for me. But you have to be happy wherever you are and if not find a place. I would like eventualy like to get my perm res in australia and get a nice retirement and vacation place, although not best for my career due to their "laid" back attitude.

We have alot of pride in our country and I think it's well deserved since most immigrants that came here were poor and homeless. Maybe people who are upset at the US for having this opinion should look at why they don't have the same one about their countries.....

[CptSternn]

Arty -

You are quite ignorant on some things, and quite misinformed on others.

First off, like to once again point out your use of 'euro-trash'. Coming from white trash in california, we take that as a complement. Yes, that might appear to be a personal attack, but you have pictures of broken down cars on your MySpace page, which does qualify under 'you might be a redneck...' guidelines.

Second your staement 'the us is the best place for me' - well, we all whole heartedly agree. Please stay there. Right wing bigots are what makes america, well, america these days.

Which brnigs me to my final point - Australia. The chances of you 'retiring' there are slim to nil. Have you ever looked into the immigration policies there? Many Irish go there to work and live, we have a special arrangment with their government. Yanks don't. In fact, I know of two people who tried to immigrate there from the states and were denied. Why? They have one of the most strict immigration policies in the world. You have to meet certain standards, which are laid out in a point system. Your job, skills, income, background, political views, etc. are all rates, judged, and scored. Due to the fact americans are raised outside a competent welfare system counts against you right away. Also, bad credit history will get you axed from the list.

Why is it easier for Irish? Simple. We have the dolé. As does britian. Austrialia has the dolé system as well. Yanks don't, which means if you go there and fail, your screwed. We have our governments welfare system to support us if we can't make it in Australia. Tis why they let us move there and NOT americans.

OF course your probably still spewing those same views you had in the previous post 'poor people spend their money on rims...' etc. which more than likely means your against using large chunks of tax payers money to help the unemployed, which is why they won't let you in (well, unless you want to go as a tourist and spend some cash).

[ArtificialOne]

Ha! Well first off, in Aus I wouldn't be on the doles since I'd be working. But I would Have to get all the paperwork done before I turn 35. They have what they call "Super" for retirement... not the Dole. I'm also very skilled and was on a 457 visa when I was there. Whe you have perm res you get all the benifits minus voting. Try doing some research then get back to me.
So what, one broke down car (Which I fixed and sold before moving to Aus), one restored classic, one good motorcyle, and company housing from five yrs ago make me a california redneck???? I'm sorry if my hobbies conflict with your idea of high culture.

And I wish we had no need fo welfare. I saw lots of people in aus taking advantage of the system, my neighbor for one. Grandfathered into a nice area and living off the dole...Why? because he said he had back problems(he couldn't ge dissability)... (Although he moonlighted as a bouncer at a danceclub every for big bucks......?) According to the Aus laws he shouldn't have qualified.

If you want me to stay in the US..Sorry I plan on an egypt trip as well as going back to Bali, and aus...so much for being an American redneck..

[nuksaa]

Many Irish go there to work and live, we have a special arrangment with their government.

Is there an official policy you can link? I am curious.

Yanks don't. Your job, skills, income, background, political views, etc. are all rates, judged, and scored. Due to the fact americans are raised outside a competent welfare system counts against you right away. Also, bad credit history will get you axed from the list.

Really. Sounds like what several immigration systems have as a foundation. I haven't taken a hard look at Australia's, so I really wouldn't know on how they rank. I really don't see how having a welfare system in the country of origin has anything to do with immigration. One, many countries revoke the individuals 'green card' when they no longer meet the requirements. Secondly, these individuals are immigrating to Australia to possibly gain citizenship...hmmmm...wouldn't having someone who has not relied on the government for their day to day sustenance be a boon, a plus in the consideration as the government wouldn't be required to pay them? I really dont' see the logic in the 'counts against' arguement.

With regard to the 2 people you know that were denied, I would question the reasons why they were denied and highlight the very catagories/items you mentioned. I know many people who have immigrated successfully and several companies from Australia who want Americans to immigrate to Australia. Granted this is based on job skills and not nationality.

I have been to Australia within the last couple of years. I didn't receive any impression of a stigma associate with being American, other than some minor infatuation with the 'American accent'.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by nuksaa

Is there an official policy you can link? I am curious.

Actually I can, I look that up for ye.

Really. Sounds like what several immigration systems have as a foundation. I haven't taken a hard look at Australia's, so I really wouldn't know on how they rank.

I'll find that link as well.

I really don't see how having a welfare system in the country of origin has anything to do with immigration.

It's actually a big thing in countries outside the states that have full benefit welfare systems. See, when you are an Irish/british/Australian national, your government has the obligation to take care of you - something the american government doesn't do. What I mean by that is if you are unemployed, you get weekly checks - not like american 'unemployement' where you get a specificed amount for 6 months. In the aforementioned countries you get about 200 quid a week (€185 in Ireland) for as long as it takes for you to get a job. It never runs out. We also get free healthcare paid for by the state, and the government also gives us 'housing assistance' paying our rent and all associated bills until we find work. Any country that doesn't have such a system tends to abuse it once they find residency in countries that do. Thats true in Australia, Ireland, and all other countries that have it. I can quote stats on that if you want. It's not just americans - China, India, etc. also have large groups of immigrants flocking to Australia who try to get in on that - we in Ireland have a problem with many eastern european nationals trying it here. They see once they get in they get a free ride, and never try to find work, where as people who live here and participate in the local community and political framweork of the country tend to not take advantage of the system as we know if it breaks we are all screwed. Those who come here just for free money dont care about the community or who else they hurt when they abuse the system.

So this does play a part in the selection process in immigration proceedings.

wouldn't having someone who has not relied on the government for their day to day sustenance be a boon, a plus in the consideration as the government wouldn't be required to pay them?

Self made millionaires and other financially independent persons are pretty much green lighted through immigration in ALL countries, that goes without saying. However if you think of 'retiring' to Australia or parts of the EU you must bring to the table a nice chunk of change that will last you through your dying days if you plan on that being your selling point. Yes, you might be a good <fill-in-the-blank> with a good job, but unless you have a nice retirement plan to cover you well through your later years don't expect any country to just allow you in as they know your healthcare will be an issue and if you can't pay, they will be obligated to.

With regard to the 2 people you know that were denied, I would question the reasons why they were denied and highlight the very catagories/items you mentioned. I know many people who have immigrated successfully and several companies from Australia who want Americans to immigrate to Australia. Granted this is based on job skills and not nationality.

The main way TO immigrate is to have a company sponsor you. First off, it costs a couple hundred to start the review process, plus a company has to pay (I think its around $1,200) a fee to the Australian government for your immigration process - not to mention promise you a position and sign a contract for you to work for a certain number of years. If you get that, your sorted. It takes about 12 months or so for the process. That being said the companies that recruit outside Australia are like Ivy League colleges in the states - they can and do choose the best and don't be surprised if you don't make the cut unless you really do out preform others in your field.

I have been to Australia within the last couple of years. I didn't receive any impression of a stigma associate with being American, other than some minor infatuation with the 'American accent'.

Heh - its what you DON'T hear that makes all the difference. Americans are cash cows. They tend to buy all that crap at the airports. So do other nations, but I live in a small Irish village - 85% of tourists here come through american tour groups on buses, and account for pretty much all the local tourism income. When they go out to the local pubs and make bollicks of themselves, we smile, take their money, and wait for them to leave before we make jokes.

As they say, if you don't have something nice to say about someone, make sure they are our of ear shot before you say it...