Well. He's Dead.

[nuksaa]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Wait, are you talking about bush or sadaam here? Looking at that statement one can only guess.

Don't think so. Weak counterpoint, trying to deflect the discussion away from Saddam and into your own agenda.

Once again us propaganda. I'm not saying he was a nice guy,

Then what are you saying, one can only guess. Define what you mean by 'not a nice guy'. Next thing you will tell us is the Holocaust never happened.

Actually the us tried, and failed.

Actually, you are wrong. You have no understanding of what limitations were placed upon the occupying forces and their actions.

How many dead civilians does it take to say the us is not 'being hesitant'?

Dead civilians killed by US troops shooting them, dead civilians by insurgent attacks, or dead civilians killed by someone who strapped a bomb to his chest and wandered into a populated area?

If you add up even the large numbers sadaam is accused of killing over the past few DECADES the number doesn't hold a candle to the amount of Iraqis that have died at the hands of american troops led by bush in the past couple years.

Link your facts and demonstrate your point.

[DarkHeartedDemoness]

Do we actually know how many people Saddam killed? Is there an actual legitimate statistic?

I'm asking not to prove a point, but because I don't know.

[nuksaa]

Originally Posted by DarkHeartedDemoness

Do we actually know how many people Saddam killed? Is there an actual legitimate statistic?

I'm asking not to prove a point, but because I don't know.

Saddam killed or Saddam ordered killed? The number ordered killed is estimated from 400,000 to over 1,000,000 (some even suggest a number closer to 2,000,000). These estimates are based on mass graves uncovered to date and witness' accounts. Will we ever know? No.

Joseph Stalin was greatly revered by Saddam and his extensive library of books documenting Stalin and his leadership style were a source of great pride and learning. Joseph Stalin's kill tally is close to 6,000,000.

[DarkHeartedDemoness]

So, I'm pretty sure Sternn wouldn't actually respond to either of our posts, Nuksaa, unless I called him out and asked him why he hadn't responded. He will inevitably respond with some story about a rally he was at, or make that whole "you guys have no lives, some of us have better things to do with our time" argument. I'm ok with that-- I just want my questions answered.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by the_dude

actually there were a lot of on record WMD's (including biotechs) that ended up going to syria before they caught him. ofcourse, they're not accounted for now, but they were when he was still 'free.'

Really? Because that was never proven, and in fact, was discounted by the Iraq Tribunal.

what i don't understand is why they brought up so many past charges on him? i was reading some stuff on cnn about him, and they brought up a crime from 1982 or something. his caravan was attacked in a shiite village, so he ordered the executions of like 47 of them afterwards. at the same time that was happening, don rumsfeld was in iraq talking with saddam and giving him support against iraq. why didn't he get tried for it then?

america's overseas policies seem a bit backwards to me?

Well, thats the problem many of us have. The fact that the us government was buddy-buddy with yer man WHILE he was supposedly commiting the 'crimes' and in fact supplied him with the WMD's they claimed he possessed. Only a few DECADES later they found they could make a better profit by invading the country and then they find all these grievances with sadaam and his government, and feel the Iraqi's need 'liberating'.

The americans put sadaam in power, gave him weapons, and propped up his government for years against Iran. When it suited the newly elected us government to turn on one of their own in efforts to make a buck, they then came out with all these WMD/genocide/murder charges and went after him, many, many years after they themselves had helped in committing those very crimes by giving guns, money, and support to the same fellow when it met their goals (financially and politically) at that time.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Budweiser69

saddam was tried by the iraqi government, not the united states. shortly after his capture, he was handed over legally to the interim government, though american forces held him physically for obvious reasons.

The reason being his own people would have freed him as they do not support the current puppet american government or the kangaroo courts the us has setup there. If the americans are acting as jailor, it means they don't trust the Iraqis with their alleged 'own' prisoners.

If the Iraqis supported the current government, there would be peace throughout Iraq. The fact it - current stats show over 200+ killings a day. That shows the extend of anger towards the propped up government there. To try and say the Iraqis wanted sadaam dead is like saying they are happy the us troops are there.

though the united states lent assistance in uncovering bodies of these massacres and retrieving evidence, it was the iraqi transitional government that established a special tribunal to try saddam for these things.

Once again with the members being selected and given 'approval' by the us government. The Iraqis didnt choose those persons on the tribunal -the americans did. This is something his defence attorney along with a dozen other human rights groups are currently pointing out to the media.

If the Iraqis were 'free' from american rule, there would be no troops there. Saying they are free to do as they wish while under occupation by hundreds of thousands of troops is just daft. The americans have the force and are calling the shots. Don't think for one second they are happily trying to to what THEY want without the us government having its own agenda sitting their right in the middle of their policies.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by nuksaa

Saddam killed or Saddam ordered killed? The number ordered killed is estimated from 400,000 to over 1,000,000 (some even suggest a number closer to 2,000,000). These estimates are based on mass graves uncovered to date and witness' accounts. Will we ever know? No.

Joseph Stalin was greatly revered by Saddam and his extensive library of books documenting Stalin and his leadership style were a source of great pride and learning. Joseph Stalin's kill tally is close to 6,000,000.

Really? Link YOUR Facts and prove he killed anyone.

I can show you facts and reports from...

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Which has links to other articles from AP/Reuters/etc. including the UN report from last week which also put the number of deaths at three times what the bush admin and Iraqi government has been telling everyone.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6266393.stm

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/17/wo...c51550&ei=5070


What can you show us to prove he killed 'hundreds of thousands'? Answer is nothing. Other than a few broad claims by the bush administration, whos credibility is worth about as much as stuff I find stuck on my boot. You going to believe the same group that claimed 'WMDs/yellow cake uranium/nuclear weapons programme'?

Everything the bush admin has claimed thus far has been either an outright lie, or just plain wrong, depending on who you ask. To try and druge up more pre-war propoganda and justify sadaams killing even after all the other claims made against him have been proven wrong, with NO evidence other than the word of the same people who gave you wrong information before is, well, silly.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by DarkHeartedDemoness

So, I'm pretty sure Sternn wouldn't actually respond to either of our posts, Nuksaa, unless I called him out and asked him why he hadn't responded. He will inevitably respond with some story about a rally he was at, or make that whole "you guys have no lives, some of us have better things to do with our time" argument. I'm ok with that-- I just want my questions answered.

Umm..which post are you refering? IF you missed my other post about rendition, then you missed the fact I just was released from prison, so therefore was not able to obviously reply to your post.

What exactly do you want clarification on?

[DarkHeartedDemoness]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Umm..which post are you refering? IF you missed my other post about rendition, then you missed the fact I just was released from prison, so therefore was not able to obviously reply to your post.

What exactly do you want clarification on?

Well, fuck. I can't find it. It's either in another thread, or it's been deleted.

I'll search for it.

[Geo_Toni]

I dont really believe in killing... but on this i am half and half on it. I think the only bad thing i can see with his death, (apart from the fact i dont see any more why people kill others, as i see it was "you're doing what he did" kindof few) as i can see it back fireing on the iraqi people... (dont ask me why, as i can just see it happening... one of those annoying feelings i get)
But on the other hand... the people's famlies who he tourched by killing their loved ones got their justice. I know if someone had murdered someone i cared about i'd probably want the same!
But whats pissed me off the most about his death, is the fact people actually filmed it and his corpse afterwards... sorry but thats sick.

[Budweiser69]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

The reason being his own people would have freed him as they do not support the current puppet american government or the kangaroo courts the us has setup there.

perhaps you missed out on the whole de-ba'athification process that removed "his own people" from government positions. the fear would have been that iraqis would have killed him in his cell or taunted him to a far greater extent than you saw in the execution video.

If the americans are acting as jailor, it means they don't trust the Iraqis with their alleged 'own' prisoners.

neither do the british anymore, not after uncovering the plot by iraqi policemen to torture and kill a bunch of the prisoners they were holding here not too long ago.

If the Iraqis supported the current government, there would be peace throughout Iraq.

not sure why you think that, since members of government are involved in the sectarian violence, themselves. perhaps you don't fully understand the multitude of conflicts that are going on there now. it's not just insurgent vs foreign forces + government or just shi'ite vs sunni. it's actually a culmination of many different struggles that has led to the violence you read about. in fact you won't hear about many of the smaller conflicts in the daily papers, such as sunni groups vs al-qaeda, shi'ite vs kurd, etc.

The fact it - current stats show over 200+ killings a day. That shows the extend of anger towards the propped up government there. To try and say the Iraqis wanted sadaam dead is like saying they are happy the us troops are there.

again, i'm not sure where you're getting this from. perhaps you missed the video images of iraqis gathering en masse to beat saddam's statue with their sandles and shoes when it was pulled down. that's one of the greater ways of insulting someone there and is why saddam had a picture of george bush senior as a doormat. if you recall, many of the iraqis were trying to pull the statue down themselves before someone finally pulled it down with a tank. think about the groups he oppressed; the shi'ites and nothern kurds. most peoples of both groups were celebrating his death and handing out candy.

[DarkHeartedDemoness]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Umm..which post are you refering? IF you missed my other post about rendition, then you missed the fact I just was released from prison, so therefore was not able to obviously reply to your post.

What exactly do you want clarification on?

Found it!

https://www.gothic.net/boards/showpo...&postcount=148

[nuksaa]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Really? Link YOUR Facts and prove he killed anyone.

I can show you facts and reports from...

What can you show us to prove he killed 'hundreds of thousands'? Answer is nothing.

Nothing.

More nothing

And of course more lies which are certified by more liars in the UN, the HRW, and AI. All these agencies gathered together and painted this elaborate hoax. Oh goodness, did you hear that, they must have just unloaded another tank from a plane at Shannon airport to put it on another plane at Shannon Airport (maybe this one has the skull and cross bones of the Jolly Rogers of VF-103 squadron) destined for Iraq.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by nuksaa

Nothing.

More nothing

And of course more lies which are certified by more liars in the UN, the HRW, and AI. All these agencies gathered together and painted this elaborate hoax.

You are now claiming Red Cross, the UN, and a dozen other international recognised aid agencies, many based in the states and who helped out at Katrina, all 'gathered together and painted this elaborate hoax'

Your starting to sound like Cheney, who said basically the same thing today.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/...ies&eref=yahoo

Vice President Dick Cheney on Wednesday dismissed as "hogwash" the suggestion that blunders may have hurt the administration's credibility on Iraq and led members of Congress on both sides of the aisle to question President Bush's plan to send more troops to Baghdad...

Yup, big conspiracy. The whole world, over half of congress, and 80% of the american people have decided to 'gang up' on the bush administration for no good reason. Good thing they have die hard right wing men like yerself to come out to the left leaning, quite liberal, goth forums to try and straighten us out.

[nuksaa]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

You are now claiming Red Cross, the UN, and a dozen other international recognised aid agencies, many based in the states and who helped out at Katrina, all 'gathered together and painted this elaborate hoax'

You asked -

Really? Link YOUR Facts and prove he killed anyone.

so I did. The response I expected from you is to cite my links as being some

Other than a few broad claims by the bush administration

propaganda. And let me return to the topic I was speaking to which is Saddam being implicated in the killings of people residing in Iraq. I fail to see the link where I am talking about the body count from the Iraq war. My sarcasm with regards to HRW, AI, and the UN mentioned in my post is the fact they support the findings of the numbers of dead by Saddam.

And what the hell do these agencies response to Katrina have to do with Saddam's "body count"?

Good thing they have die hard right wing men like yerself to come out to the left leaning, quite liberal, goth forums to try and straighten us out.

And now we return to name calling. I am most, certainly, not here to "straighten out" anyone. I discuss politics and provide information and insight. Don't confuse straighten out with providing facts.

So all the members of the goth subculture who disagree with you and your opinion are die hard right wingers (which is strange as I share the view with many that the additional troops being sent to Iraq will not solve the problem) and all the others are left leaning liberals? I provided links to sources of information to support what I am speaking and you attempt to spin that I am talking about something else? Do you understand the debate setup of point and counterpoint discussion? Or are we supposed to agree with everything you say because you said it?

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by nuksaa

I fail to see the link where I am talking about the body count from the Iraq war. My sarcasm with regards to HRW, AI, and the UN mentioned in my post is the fact they support the findings of the numbers of dead by Saddam.

And what the hell do these agencies response to Katrina have to do with Saddam's "body count"?

The fact you discounted the data of these agencies as 'hype' is what I was pointing out. As far as these agencies backing the claims of sadaams atrocities - please show us - as I said before, no aid agency has ANY facts above a few select incidents which put the boy count he is responsible for in the tens of thousands on the HIGH end - not hundreds of thousands as you stated.

So all the members of the goth subculture who disagree with you and your opinion are die hard right wingers (which is strange as I share the view with many that the additional troops being sent to Iraq will not solve the problem) and all the others are left leaning liberals? I provided links to sources of information to support what I am speaking and you attempt to spin that I am talking about something else? Do you understand the debate setup of point and counterpoint discussion? Or are we supposed to agree with everything you say because you said it?

Of course not. That being said, I appreciate a good counter point when personal attacks are left out.

Also, there ARE many right wingers here who are NOT associated with our sub culture in any way, who post here. I mean, I also as I have said before find it hard to believe ANY goth could support the republican party in the states - after they made banning gay marriage a campaign issue, and still push that, and put multiple pieces of legislation through congress in efforts to ban goth events and gatherings.

To hear someone claim to be part of the scene and support bush and his party is like having a black man saying he supports the klan.

[nuksaa]

The fact you discounted the data of these agencies as 'hype' is what I was pointing out.

Well, considering I didn't discount these agencies facts, your point is unclear. The sarcasm is directed to you and your anticipated response to the links I posted.

no aid agency has ANY facts above a few select incidents which put the boy count he is responsible for in the tens of thousands on the HIGH end - not hundreds of thousands as you stated.

HRW executive director comments out lining the Kurd massacre.

AI report regarding the non-kurdish estimates.

And I will repost this link detailing the 270 mass graves discovered to date.

legislation through congress in efforts to ban goth events and gatherings.

Provide the link.

hard to believe ANY goth could support the republican party in the states

If that was the case, none would support the democrats, either. Just because someone supports a party doesn't mean they support every single portion of the parties platform. You don't believe there are Republicans fighting for the rights of the homosexual? Several republican senators voted against that marriage amendment, including John McCain. Oh and BTW, this 'die hard right wing men like yerself' was against this attrocious amendment. I find it hard to believe ANY goth would support putting labels on people and sterotyping individuals.