Christianity... - Page 12

Encaitare · 02-03-2007, 10:01 AM

Exactly, Jillian. Or to put it in snappy verse:

Can omnipotent God, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
Change His future mind?
-- Karen Ownens

HumanePain · 02-03-2007, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Haha, I wanted to answer your post, but your using of the word omniscient made me remember something cool I read once.
I am about to prove the in-existence of God by calling upon his paradoxical powers of omnipotence and omniscience.

God is omniscient, so he knows everything that will happen, including what He Himself will do in the future. His omnipotence is not real because there's already a fixed action he has seen that he will commit. But he could change it, right? After all, he is omnipotent.
So, He changes his decision for the action he was going to commit. But then he was wrong when he foresaw what he was going to do. His omniscience failed him.

Hmmm it is a puzzlement: I thought He gave us free will to choose, but if the foreseen future is set in stone, then we are not really exercising free will, but following a predetermined path? My head hurts.

So perhaps (written with the audacity to try and guess what God is thinking) He does give individuals free will, and foresees only the *general* outcome of the future? Hmmmm...(scratching head...)

JCC · 02-03-2007, 11:13 AM

As has been well-documented over time, it is impossible for God to be omnipotent, if he is all-knowing.

He doesn't have the ability to not know.

DarkHeartedDemoness · 02-03-2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HumanePain

Hmmm it is a puzzlement: I thought He gave us free will to choose, but if the foreseen future is set in stone, then we are not really exercising free will, but following a predetermined path? My head hurts.

So perhaps (written with the audacity to try and guess what God is thinking) He does give individuals free will, and foresees only the *general* outcome of the future? Hmmmm...(scratching head...)

As an omniscient being, he has to have a thought capacity none of us can even imagine. Isn't it possible that he knows all the possible outcomes of everything ever? That's not saying there's a predetermined path, just that everything that affects anything and changes anything is knowable by him. So, whether I answer my cell phone when it rings, or ignore it, he knows what will happen as a consequence, and can see infinitely into the future on either path...?

Encaitare · 02-03-2007, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkHeartedDemoness

As an omniscient being, he has to have a thought capacity none of us can even imagine. Isn't it possible that he knows all the possible outcomes of everything ever? That's not saying there's a predetermined path, just that everything that affects anything and changes anything is knowable by him. So, whether I answer my cell phone when it rings, or ignore it, he knows what will happen as a consequence, and can see infinitely into the future on either path...?

Yes, but even if he can see all the possibilities, he would still know for sure which path would be the one you choose. Even if he knew what would happen if you ignored your cell phone, for example, he knows you will answer it. If he didn't know for sure, he wouldn't be omniscient.

DarkHeartedDemoness · 02-03-2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encaitare

Yes, but even if he can see all the possibilities, he would still know for sure which path would be the one you choose. Even if he knew what would happen if you ignored your cell phone, for example, he knows you will answer it. If he didn't know for sure, he wouldn't be omniscient.

Why not? I mean, couldn't he know that predicting free will is unknowable, and know that I have the choice to do either? I don't think omniscient means he can predict the future, just know it, if that makes sense.

Encaitare · 02-03-2007, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkHeartedDemoness

Why not? I mean, couldn't he know that predicting free will is unknowable, and know that I have the choice to do either? I don't think omniscient means he can predict the future, just know it, if that makes sense.

(emphasis mine)

If anything is unknowable to God, anything at all, then he's not omniscient. If he can't predict free will, then he's neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

MollyMac · 02-03-2007, 02:23 PM

It is the notion that Free Will was granted. Even if the Almighty knew what we would choose, it was His will that we would choose paths. They were not predetermined, only pre-known.

Imagine God is the cameraman, there is a Lion and you are the gazelle.

God knows you will get eaten by the lion, but it was your choice not to run.

Cyntrox · 02-03-2007, 03:22 PM

I like the comparison (on page 1 I believe)where God is compared with a programer. I am a programer myself, so I know what it's like. You have wrote this perfect script, everything will work fine. But then there is a little bug - the devil - that you have overlooked or not noticed, that may mean that you have to wipe clean big parts of the script and start over. See where I'm going?

Encaitare · 02-03-2007, 05:32 PM

MollyMac, as I see it, free will and omniscience are incompatible. Even if you think the choice is of your own free will, the omniscient being still knows what you're going to do. And if you change your mind, he already knew that you were going to. It's impossible to contradict him; in the end, you must do what he foresees.

Cyntrox, as I said in my previous post, if God overlooks anything, no matter how small, he is not omniscient. If he makes a mistake, he is a flawed, fallible being, just like anyone.

Godslayer Jillian · 02-03-2007, 05:36 PM

We must remember the better description of omnipotence (capable of doing anything that is logically possible to do) and omniscience (capable of knowing anything logically possible to know)
That still doesn't explain what Karen Owens asked, but it does take away the mediocre attempts to explain the impossibility of omnipotence such as 'If God is all powerful can He kill Himself?'

HumanePain · 02-03-2007, 05:46 PM

Ah, this would be a good time to post your previous signature Jillian, I forgot how it exactly goes, but it described the logical outcome of an omnipotent being sending His Son to be sacrificed for the salvation of mankind, in the context of the Father and the Son belonging to the same trinity.

Godslayer Jillian · 02-03-2007, 05:54 PM

Haha, but I like my new one.

Cyntrox · 02-03-2007, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encaitare

Cyntrox, as I said in my previous post, if God overlooks anything, no matter how small, he is not omniscient. If he makes a mistake, he is a flawed, fallible being, just like anyone.

Yet, His world is not perfect. Why? Something happened that was against His will. If I remember correctly, it was the devil in the form of a snake. I believe that "almighy" is more of a glorification, while he is indeed the most pure of all beings, He cannot controll every single detail.

Sorry for any spelling mistake or lack of sense in the above post, I haven't slept for a day...

HumanePain · 02-03-2007, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyntrox

Yet, His world is not perfect. Why? Something happened that was against His will. If I remember correctly, it was the devil in the form of a snake. I believe that "almighy" is more of a glorification, while he is indeed the most pure of all beings, He cannot controll every single detail.

Sorry for any spelling mistake or lack of sense in the above post, I haven't slept for a day...

So perhaps we do have free will? This makes more sense.

Encaitare · 02-03-2007, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyntrox

Yet, His world is not perfect. Why? Something happened that was against His will. If I remember correctly, it was the devil in the form of a snake. I believe that "almighy" is more of a glorification, while he is indeed the most pure of all beings, He cannot controll every single detail.

Sorry for any spelling mistake or lack of sense in the above post, I haven't slept for a day...

If the admission is made that God is not perfect, then that would make sense. However, the Christian God is supposed to be a perfect, infallible being. If he can't control every detail, he's not omnipotent. If you want to bring the devil and the garden into it, then I would say that it was a part of a divine plan, for God certainly would have foreseen it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

We must remember the better description of omnipotence (capable of doing anything that is logically possible to do) and omniscience (capable of knowing anything logically possible to know)

Yet as numerous fundies have said, you can't apply logic to faith. Well, there go all attempts at reason in one fell swoop.

MollyMac · 02-04-2007, 06:55 AM

We are free to fuck up because He chose that we would be free to choose. That was Predestination. His knowledge of the future and what our future choices will be is not Predestination. He may not agree, but He will not interfere. He did not choose the paths we would take, only that we would be free to choose them.

Encaitare · 02-04-2007, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MollyMac

His knowledge of the future and what our future choices will be is not Predestination.

It certainly seems like it is to me... I suppose we just have different mindsets.

LaKeesha · 02-04-2007, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encaitare

It certainly seems like it is to me... I suppose we just have different mindsets.

That's OK and there is nothing wrong with that.

If we were all the same and thought all the same, WE WOULD BE BORING.

MollyMac · 02-04-2007, 10:55 AM

Hear, hear. The ability to agree to disagree is why the planet is still here. That, and a lack of more destructive technology in the hands of those who would subdue us.

Encaitare · 02-04-2007, 12:01 PM

Oh, I am all for agreeing to disagree. The only bad thing about it is that it's frustrating when you want so badly to understand something and you just can't get your head around it. For example, I have a friend who is at seminary to become a Catholic priest. He's a lovely person and I have great respect for his dedication, but no matter how I try, I can't understand some of his beliefs and views.

Oh well... as LaKeesha said, our differences make life more interesting.

MollyMac · 02-04-2007, 03:04 PM

Sometimes acceptance means that you don't have to understand.

People hold their views for a reason, some known to us, some not. If you don't like what they believe, it's not for you to change them when you can only change yourself. It is cool that you make the effort to understand another side of thing. Even if you will never agree, you are at least looking at the shoes they chose to walk in.

Circle V · 02-05-2007, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encaitare

It certainly seems like it is to me... I suppose we just have different mindsets.

"Wrong" isn't a mindset.

I'm not referring to anyone in particular, but I won't condone stupidity for the sake of world harmony. Understanding why someone holds a certain belief doesn't justify the belief. I'd provide an example, but I trust that most of you are smart enough to do that on your own.

Encaitare · 02-05-2007, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circle V

"Wrong" isn't a mindset.

I'm not referring to anyone in particular, but I won't condone stupidity for the sake of world harmony. Understanding why someone holds a certain belief doesn't justify the belief. I'd provide an example, but I trust that most of you are smart enough to do that on your own.

No, understanding why someone believes something doesn't justify it. But it does help.

I gave up arguing because it wasn't going anywhere. What I'm saying makes complete sense to me, and what MollyMac says makes complete sense to her (at least, I'm assuming so; otherwise she probably wouldn't be saying it, haha). Whatever. Molly seems like a nice person who's not hurting anyone by believing what she believes, so no matter. It's not worth the time and frustration of continuing a futile argument.

Circle V · 02-05-2007, 03:07 PM

Generally speaking, you're right.

When it comes to more important matters, I will at least attempt to sway anyone who seems to have less than absolute faith in their beliefs (that is, reasonable people.) I will, for example, try very hard to convert agnostics into atheists.