Christianity...

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by Circle V

Generally speaking, you're right.

When it comes to more important matters, I will at least attempt to sway anyone who seems to have less than absolute faith in their beliefs (that is, reasonable people.) I will, for example, try very hard to convert agnostics into atheists.

What's interesting is that I've gotten very much into promoting atheism and denouncing religion as of late, but it gets tiresome after a while. I become weary of being argumentative. I kind of miss the days when I never thought about matters of [the hypothetical] god at all, because that is, in my opinion, atheism at its truest and purest.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Circle V

I will, for example, try very hard to convert agnostics into atheists.

High five.
I'm more of the guy that tries to convince people of the logic of Evolution (Not intelligent design, and definitely not Creationism)

[Circle V]

Most people I know have already accepted evolution-- and if they haven't, nothing I can say will convince them otherwise.

I don't think that ignorance is ever preferable to critical thought, Encaitare, regardless of its simplicity.

[Encaitare]

It wasn't a matter of ignorance, in my case. I was brought up in a largely secular home. I'd heard of God and religion and I decided it didn't hold water, and that was that. Now I'm more active about it. I'd like to see a time, though, when we've evolved beyond religion and the existence of God is a nonissue.

[Circle V]

Oh, yes. I don't think that day is very far off, actually.

[Encaitare]

Really? I hope you're right. Unless something revolutionary happens, I don't expect to live to see that day. Why do you think it's close? *hopes you know something revolutionary* =P

[HumanePain]

In my humble opinion, I think the day is still far off:
The Muslims are not going anyway anytime soon, and they make up a significant part of the world, and so do the Christians, as do the Hindu and Buddhist believers too.

I cannot foresee any revolutionary idea that would wipe out all of the above in the near future.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

No, I can't see the day when no one's religious.

I think that different things are better for different people. It just wouldn't be such a problem if people didn't kill/oppress each other over it.

[Tha Duckman]

I have discovered certain inaliable truths during my journeys through the Interweb. One of these truths is that on every Goth forum, there will be a topic on Chrisianity in a catagory for ranting, but not one on another religion, as this will be classed as racist. While the Goths proclaim to dislike racism and other forms of bigotry, it will escape them that disliking Christians is a form of bigotry, as they dislike said Christians for their creed.

What's with that?

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

In my humble opinion, I think the day is still far off:
The Muslims are not going anyway anytime soon, and they make up a significant part of the world, and so do the Christians, as do the Hindu and Buddhist believers too.

I cannot foresee any revolutionary idea that would wipe out all of the above in the near future.

The only thing I can think of might be contact with an alien race... it would show that the universe was not created for humankind, as some believe. Even that might not be enough, though. Maybe if science found a way to fully explain the origins of the universe... but then, some people still believe all humankind descends from a guy and an ex-rib.

I can see the day when no one is religious, but again, I think it's far away.

[Circle V]

Religion will never be entirely eradicated, but I believe that the US is not far from becoming as secular as the majority of Europe's industrialized nations.

"Christian" has become the default religion in the US, and most self-proclaimed Christians consider themselves such because of outdated beliefs that atheism is evil (but secularism is considered a good thing, though the difference is slight), because faith is associated with goodness, and because it's simply easier to be seen as a Christian. As soon as atheism loses some of its stigma, the false Christians will stop pretending. There is, of course, a solid base of true Christians in America, but they are few in number compared to the Christian agnostics and secularists.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Tha Duckman

One of these truths is that on every Goth forum, there will be a topic on Chrisianity in a catagory for ranting, but not one on another religion, as this will be classed as racist.

Technically it's not racist. It's more like 'religist'.
In any case, I can believe that in all gothic forums there's a whining thread about Christianity, but don't think of this one as 'fuck Jesus' or 'there is no God, go Satan'.
I myself created this thread, being an atheist, and even a satanist in my views of pleasure, and still, I defended the religion.
The point of the thread was to defend it as well as I could, along with whoever wanted to side for Christianity (believers or not) to see if Christianity could indeed answer to questions of truth.
It kind of met a harsh spot in matters of the universal flood and some paradoxes; but the point of the thread is still a practical approach to see if there could be logic behind the history of the Bible (from a fundamentalist perspective, not one where the Bible is only a guideline)
Why did I create this thread? Because I took a class of Apologetics, and even when I could shoot down my own theories, with this debate people could get some firepower to defend their own beliefs by seeing what others have to say, not in 'Well, I believe that...' as so many have done in this thread (and I'd like to see it end) but in 'Well, it's clearly possible/impossible if you consider that...'

[Circle V]

Originally Posted by Tha Duckman

I have discovered certain inaliable truths during my journeys through the Interweb. One of these truths is that on every Goth forum, there will be a topic on Chrisianity in a catagory for ranting, but not one on another religion, as this will be classed as racist. While the Goths proclaim to dislike racism and other forms of bigotry, it will escape them that disliking Christians is a form of bigotry, as they dislike said Christians for their creed.

What's with that?

I don't dislike Christians. I'm disappointed in them, since I sincerely believe that their beliefs are wrong, and very obviously so. Disagreeing with another is not bigotry, and it is idiotic to assign a special status to religions that places them above reproach. They are belief systems, similar to political affiliations, scientific theories, or philosophies, and most certainly can be wrong.

I loathe Christianity (not Christians by default), and every other supernatural belief system. Christianity just happens to be the one I'm familiar with. If I lived in an Islamic society, I would be talking about Islam.

If you want equality, here you go:

I hate Christianity. I hate Islam. I hate Judaism. I hate Scientology. I hate Mormonism. I hate Rastafarianism. I hate Zoroastrianism. I hate Buddhism (but not quite as much). I hate Hinduism. Need I continue?

[HumanePain]

I'm with you on the Scientology rant: when I was a teenager, I decided to explore it, and signed up for the "Introductory" class, in which the instructor had me hold the two can lie detector, to make sure I had no "inner turbulence" (conflicts? shrugs). When they had me do that, and then told me I needed to take an advanced class to find out more about myself, I decided they were full of it and left.

A month later, I get a letter from a law office representing the "church" of Scientology, saying "did I forget to pay my $50 donation?" (this was in the early 70's). They sent a LAWYER after me! When I ignored it, they threatened to SUE me! I just blew it off because I was only 17. Turns out they forgot to ask that little question on the "sign up sheet" (a hidden contract!).

Bastards.

[MollyMac]

Humane, if you want a headache, come to St. Louis, Missouri. On Delmar, there is a huge church of Scientology... housed in the old Masonic lodge.

When you look at it and notice the angle/compass emblem and then the Dianetics banner, the sound you hear is a *poink* of your cerebral cortex separating.

It's just across the way from an old Jewish temple that is now home to a Catholic university's music conservatory.

[HumanePain]

Haha, I'll bet. It has been about ten years since I was last in St. Louis. I had to install some software at McDonnell Douglas. Or was it Rockwell? Can't remember. But I will never forget the huge Budweiser beer signs! Wish I had been able to take the time to go in the giant arch ("The Gateway to the West"?) but I was off the plane, into the site, and on the plane again, pronto.

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by Circle V

"Christian" has become the default religion in the US, and most self-proclaimed Christians consider themselves such because of outdated beliefs that atheism is evil (but secularism is considered a good thing, though the difference is slight), because faith is associated with goodness, and because it's simply easier to be seen as a Christian. As soon as atheism loses some of its stigma, the false Christians will stop pretending. There is, of course, a solid base of true Christians in America, but they are few in number compared to the Christian agnostics and secularists.

Statistics to back this up, please?

[MollyMac]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

Wish I had been able to take the time to go in the giant arch ("The Gateway to the West"?) but I was off the plane, into the site, and on the plane again, pronto.

Ah, The Jefferson Memorial Expansion Project. Everyone's grandfather worked on it. I used to live in Soulard, in plain sight of that eyesore and three blocks from the Budweiser brewery. Nothing wakes you up and puts hair on your chest in the morning like the scent of hops skulking in the air.

Like a hippie's sweatsock.

It's a funny city for religion, though. Extremely Catholic for the most part. A lot of very beautiful churches (directions to my house used to be "drive south until you hear bells or feel really guilty, then make a left"). I used to wander about the seminary and the convent. Shrines to our Lady of the Whathaveyous; highly artful architectureal protestant churches, the Basilica and I basically live on a Jewish graveyard...

... I fear the back-plant search on my plot that I am running. I am not kidding, my 'hood is too close to some known cemetaries... which are essentially the wealthy sections of the poor, unmarked cemetaries.

If I didn't work in legal surveying, I probably wouldn't fret so much about digging a three foot hole for my maple tree.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by MollyMac

Ah, The Jefferson Memorial Expansion Project. Everyone's grandfather worked on it. I used to live in Soulard, in plain sight of that eyesore and three blocks from the Budweiser brewery. Nothing wakes you up and puts hair on your chest in the morning like the scent of hops skulking in the air.

Like a hippie's sweatsock.

It's a funny city for religion, though. Extremely Catholic for the most part. A lot of very beautiful churches (directions to my house used to be "drive south until you hear bells or feel really guilty, then make a left"). I used to wander about the seminary and the convent. Shrines to our Lady of the Whathaveyous; highly artful architectural protestant churches, the Basilica and I basically live on a Jewish graveyard...

... I fear the back-plant search on my plot that I am running. I am not kidding, my 'hood is too close to some known cemeteries... which are essentially the wealthy sections of the poor, unmarked cemeteries.

If I didn't work in legal surveying, I probably wouldn't fret so much about digging a three foot hole for my maple tree.

Awesome! Now I have to give some excuse to my boss for me to fly out there, camera in hand, for the cemeteries and the churches. (starts googling Soulard and St. Louis...)

[Circle V]

.................

Originally Posted by Encaitare

Statistics to back this up, please?

It's my opinion. I apologize for not adding a disclaimer. Besides, asking for statistics in a largely speculative field like amateur theology (usually) yields no results. I could always ask:

Statistics to back up the existence of God, please?

But I won't.

Anyway, my point was that, while statistics show that the vast majority of Americans are Christians, relatively few American Christians--especially youths-- know much about their religion, and few are dedicated to it more deeply than a superficial level. I can't back that up with facts at the moment, but I have found it to be true based on personal experience.

Come to think of it, I do have a statistic that demonstrates American prejudice against atheists.

Originally Posted by Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

A Gallup poll taken in 1999 asked Americans whether they would vote for an otherwise well-qualified person who was a woman (95 per cent would), Roman Catholic (94 per cent would), Jew (92 per cent), black (92 per cent), Mormon (79 per cent), homosexual (79 per cent) or atheist (49 per cent).

[Encaitare]

No worries, I only mentioned it because making generalizations isn't the best way to make an argument. But I agree, as far as personal experience goes, that most Christians don't know that much about their own religion.

Mmm... the God Delusion makes for yummy reading. Dawkins is a hero. =D

[Circle V]

I agree. Thank you for asking me to be at least vaguely scientific.

Yeah, it's a good book. I like watching his interviews.

[Engulfed_in_darkness]

Originally Posted by CharlesMansonIncarnate

Isn't being a "christian goth" putting division between you and the rest of your christian community?

And if it is, then that leaves you with the question of whether or not it is your problem or theirs. If it is your problem, and you are "goth" as a way to rebel from the mundane lies that spew from the mouth of the preacher and the bible, then your rebellion would be hated by your god, and considered evil...as the bible says rebellion is hand in hand with witchcraft, meaning it is to be avoided the same. God hates evil, as well as workers of iniquity (evil) and doing the evil of rebellion, god hates you.

If the problem is with the christian community, and they are causing the division because of your appearance, then it raises cause to examine the belief based on it's culture. It's community. Do you want to be apart of something that causes you to do something "god" hates in order to deal with your own beliefs?

If the community has the problem, detatch yourself from the community, and you will quickly detatch yourself from the false belief.

Dearest apologies kind sir, But did you NOT understand anything that I have said? I said it clearly in my post that I don't believe in denomination, therefore I am not part of a Christian community. I said clearly that I am my own Christian. I said clearly that I do not follow denomination. Mainstream Christianity which bashes on whatever they can get their hands on is part of denomination, and as I said I am not of denomination, and not being of denomination, there no Christian community for me to separate myself from. Second, how would anyone in a Christian community know I was goth? I dress the way I want. Just because I'm here at Gnet doesn't mean I wear all black and that its easy to identify me as a "goth". I dress however I feel. If I feel down I may wear dark colors. If I feel happy I may wear bright colors. I dress the way I feel, my dress code is not run by a subculture thank you very much. And third, I do not recall claiming I was "goth". I know clearly that I don't put LABELS on myself because goth, prep, punk, whatever, the truth is, REAL people don't put labels on themselves like soup cans. Furthermore, If I was part of a Christian community and was "gawth", I don't think that would separate me from my own god. In the Bible, the foundation of Christianity, New Testament, Paul CLEARLY says that neither principalities, nor things now or things to come, or anything "shall separate us from the love of God". Therefore, stating my case, that CLOTHES, OR SUBCULTURE of any sort, cannot separate you from your own religion or your own god. Think clearly before you speak good sir. Thank you, and good day to you.

[ArtificialOne]

Wow

I'll have to say there have been some really good intelligent replies today. I agree with the above comment. I work in jobs that I can't always dress the way I want, and also situations that also prevent me from being a full blown freak.

I was always taught that you have to dress approprietly for the situation.Whatever it calls for. This doesn't mean you are a part time poser or you're not a true goth. It just means you are a responsible person.

It's far to common to have anyone of any group dressing inapproprietly these days. I think it's rude and inconsiderate of others to not be aware of proper etiquette when under certain circumstances. Damn it all!!!! lol

[NowIReignInBlood]

Well, Jillian, although I am new here, it is nice to see some people that are open to other possibilities (religion) and that you're not a bitch about it.

I, myself, am a "christian." *runs and hides* However, I am open to the fact that I very well could be wrong. I don't necessarily believe everything that is said in the bible. (Gays go to hell, all none believers will perish, etc.) I generally choose not to participate in churches and such because although I do believe the same religion, I do find that most hardcore christians are quite annoying and ignorant. I really hate the hypocritical views that most "christians" have. (Such as trying to "guard themselves" from bands that promote satanic point of views and imagery. ) I honestly could care less if a band was hardcore satanic. Shagrath from Dimmu (according to wikipedia anyways) is a satanist, but I could care less. They're one of my favorite bands (going to see them April 30th ) and my girlfriend is agnostic. I mostly just believe what I believe, and leave it at that. And, like I said, I am open to the possibility that I could very well be wrong. I've had some sort of personal experiences to believe in christianity as well. I've read about several other religions (satanism included, which is very fascinating.) I didn't just choose christianity because that's what my parents believe in. I don't have a problem with anyone who is satanic. (Although the stupid wannabe's who try to be all "fuck the bastard christ, he never existed. Lets so burn down churches blah blah blah" are quite annoying. Come on, have some respect for others religions. I highly respect satanism.