Baby Bats: a Necessary Evil

[psyches_reflection]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

So what happens when all the original goths die off? Does your trump card die with them?

There's no difference at all. How do you think religions come about? A group of people pass on their ideals to younger generations in the hope that the new blood will adhere to the old principles.

Imagine if those first few people who had heard the word of whichever prophet they choose to believe. Do you think that they, while passing their ideals on to younger generations, would allow too much diversion from the original? Compromising their own beliefs in order to include all of the new ideas of their successors would have diluted their religion within a few generations. That is how religions have kept their seperate identities: by keeping their core beliefs sacred and unchanged.

Granted, now there are thousands of different branches of those few central religions, each with slightly different ideas about how they should pay service to whichever God they follow. After several thousand years, it's only natural for the core ideas to have been reinterpreted so many times, as change is the by-product of free thought.

How does this argument relate to Goth? The history of the Gothic subculture is less than fifty years old. In time, there will be plenty of different interpretations of what it has, does and could stand for. But while there are plenty of survivors of the original scene left, shouldn't we strive for awareness of how it started and what it originally pertained to? Otherwise we may as well all give up the ghost now, for it's history will become irrelevant and it's meaning lost unto horrible misinterpretation.

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

There are thousands of threads about it, all claiming with equal vehemence that the definition held within is the one, true GOTH. This is no different than Lutherans, Catholics, Mennonites, etc. claiming that they have the answer, and that theirs is the one true FAITH.

We may come to disagreements when decided what it is, but we can certainly agree on what it isn't: and it isn't pop-punk, it isn't a fad, it isn't a clique at school, and it's not something you can buy off a rack at the mall. Baby bats perpetuate a false notion, and thus hide the true face of goth.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

That's a different matter entirely. The difference between religious right and subcultural right is that subcultures have a proven history and also people still living today, that were around when goth was first formed. Religion has neither proof or survivors.

Good goth again Now I must say we're fortuanate to have you, Drac. I must say regarding the defining of our subculture should go on. Why? Well it makes us authentic and interesting. Another thing that makes our culture a gem is that there isn't one safe definition. In the simplest form our goth is a subculture, founding with music and passion with an indescrible ideology. I mean, punk can be defined as an aggressive outlash at society generally. Glam can be described as a flamboyant (but not overrated like Disco) and gay camp-style.

Goth can be defined how? There are so many definitions for our subculture, and that's what a reason why we're still lucky enough to have it today. In different styles, yes, but still at least we have it.

Giving you all another thought: Isn't it even more insulting that our subculture, goth, has been spotlighted in the mainstream in two different eras, yet today it's negative. We're either blamed for something with bigotry- adhearing nuts, or My Commerical Coca Cola Romance is on Sub-Terr-Ann-Ean again.
Though back in the eighties Specimen and the batcave were in newspapers and seen like Bowie in his Ziggy era. And the Batcave was seen as this beautiful, slightly horror in cheek, transgressive place. Personally I'd even perfer the narratives of how 80s goth was overlooked then how pop music is today.

Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[Aaroneet]

Perspectives change, but then again, so does events and circumstance. One thing you can always count on with the mainstream culture/society is that perspective is always a fickle thing. From what I understand in your point, and if I am incorrect don't blast me here, one can almost compare the Gothic subculture to Edward Scissorhands. Everyone in the neighborhood, then, would be symbolic of society. One minute, Edward was completely adored; the next, he is a freak of nature. What is wonderful one minute is, with little doubt, horrid the next. This seems to simply be human nature. Then again, that's how I've come to interpret it.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Aaroneet

Perspectives change, but then again, so does events and circumstance. One thing you can always count on with the mainstream culture/society is that perspective is always a fickle thing...

Events do NOT change once they have happened. That is why it is important that the subculture preserve the definitions, the social memory of Goth's origin's, before it becomes corrupted and lost in time. Peter Murphy WAS part of Bauhaus, Rozz Williams did sing and despair about religious betrayal, etc.
It is why some of us get pissed when babybats say: "HIM is goth". HIM is the present.

Mind you, there is nothing wrong with having varied taste in music (I LOVE Lacuna Coil, but they are not Goth), as long as one does not begin blurring the lines, or else that could conceivably lead to "Hawthorne Heights is Goth", or "Dean Martin is Opera", or "The Police are Reggae", or ...

I love Vyvyan's tribute to Rozz Williams on YouTube. THAT is GOTH!

[CountSixstring]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

After what my mate said last night, I've been thinking about the subject of baby bats. This morning, something occurred to me that put me at great rest. I wanted to share it with you all.

Goth has always been a subculture whose heart lies underground; I think we all know that by now. But what of baby bats, those sk8ers-in-black who falsely believe themselves to be goths? I believe strongly that they are an integral part to goth itself. Since goth has always been underground, away from the prying eyes of the mainstream, what would happen because the mainstream got the wrong idea about goth, and started using our name? They'd pretty much keep on believing goth is something it's not, and associating baby bats with it, while leaving the true heart of goth untouched and more underground than before, since all the attention is being given to a... sort of decoy-scene.

Whenever I've tried to convince a baby bat that they just aren't goth, it doesn't work, 99% of the time. No matter what we do or say, the mainstream will not believe anything other than what they want to believe. And perhaps they have every right to. After all, we are ridiculing them for their taste in music, or the clothes they wear. We're resulting to no less than name-calling to defend our scene, while theirs lies unaffected and still prospers. Some of us believe that, by being misled, baby bats are destroying goth. But tell me this: is it common for baby bats to listen to Bauhaus and Siouxsie and have excellent DiY skills? All that they're really doing is helping us to hide our true nature. We've always been like a secret society, all with our handshakes, customs, traditions, etc.

So, the way I see it, baby bats are helping goth prosper. From now on, whenever I'm asked what goth music I like, I'm still going to say "I prefer old-school goth, like..." because some of them may actually want to hear that music. But I'm not, however, going to just bring up the fact that "this or that band's not goth" because frankly, baby bats don't care to believe you. They're in the process of growing up and trying to find themselves. We are like big brothers to them, whom they look up to and try to imitate in every way. They don't exactly get the right idea, but that doesn't mean we should wipe them out.

I still believe bands like H.I.M, My Chem, and A.F.I. are total pigs, but only because they're money-worshipping, lying bastards. They actually know they're not goth; they just lie about it, in a sense, to their audience. In short, they're the man. Nonetheless, I respect anyone's choice to like them or hate them.

We can have our arguments, but I like the way you think. I think that you're right about the difference between baby bats, spooky kids, and whatnot. Bands with black on and dark imagery aren't goth. I hate Hot Topic kids even more since I worked there. I bought my band shirts and a few other things from my wardrobe there, but it is a place for poseurs but since I read this I can learn to leave them be. I like A.F.I. and My chem or my own reasons, but they're my own, not the public's. I respect your decision to pick and choose things for one's self and not for any general populous, it shows character. Baby bats do need the elders to guide them, but if not, leave them be.

[Emerald]

I must admit one thing I find frustrating with the Goth scene is the attitude of some Elder Goths towards Baby Bats. I mean I know we'd all like to think we emerged from the womb this fully formed ideal of Goth but the truth is we were Baby Bats too once. I think a lot of the older/more experienced Goths tend to forget that, hell I'll admit to doing some very stereotypical poserish nonsense back in 1986 . As Elders we complain about how the scene is being bastardised and becoming a pale reflection of it's former glories, but then we look down upon the Baby Bats and dismiss them as little more than an annoyance. Well you know if we want the scene to survive and not become completely overrun by Hot Topic Mansonites (for example) then we have to help train the next generation. We have to be prepared to take these Baby Bats under our wings and show them the way.

[badteccy]

I have a theory that most goths were babybats at first. I was SUCH a baby bat....metal tshirts...big pants...oh how mortifying.

[Tha Duckman]

Here's a thought, how about you let those tools go on being tools, and you can be a tool, too, just a "Real" tool, not like those "Fake" tools.

For crying out loud, why the fuck is the sub0culture of Goth taken so seriously? Maybe THAT'S why society looks down on it! They don;t see a bunch of "Devil worshipping freaks" they see "Obnoxious Devil worshipping freaks". All this talk of "I am more Goth than you" is pretty fucking pathetic. Really, who gives a damn? Whether some one is more Goth than I am isn't going to make me stop breathing.

Freaking baby bat, my hairy Irish ass hole...

FUCK I'm high...

[Lady_Lacrimosa_Umbrae]

It is an interesting thread... I had indeed thought of baby bats as necessary as they put new blood into the subculture.

You know, I'm just 18 years old, so young enough to be considered a baby bat still (never been to a gothic club before >_<) and I came across goth about 4 years ago... (Yes, I am going to tell you the story :P) To me it came through literature. I had been reading people like Poe since I was 12, and yet never associated it with anything else... I was also deeply fascinated by the aesthetic, and liked dark colours since I was younger. So one day I decided I should learn more about it and started doing research. Reading a lot on the internet, finding band names, listening to them, reading a little more, trying the aesthetic shyly at first to see how it felt, watching films... over time... I just happened to slip into it without noticing.
One day I was talking to my parents about books and they said something like "Oh, for sure you love the gothic writers. You're a Goth!" and I was kind of "Ehm? Truly?..." I remember feeling a little shocked to have been named "Goth" and not maybe "dark" or something like that, it sounded like such a big word. Then I started wondering and realised how it had happened... I never had an OldeSkool to guide me through

Well, after the deeply moving story of my baby bat days (ahem ahem), I must say that thinking about the Spooky Kids as necessary to keep the true thing underground is an original thought in my opinion... and true by the way. The Baby Bats & Spooky Kids is like a kind of middle ground in which the future of our subculture can find its way and which satisfys other people's need of pre-made rebellion... as well as the media's obsession for morbid stuff and scapegoats.

[CountSixstring]

Originally Posted by Tha Duckman

Here's a thought, how about you let those tools go on being tools, and you can be a tool, too, just a "Real" tool, not like those "Fake" tools.

For crying out loud, why the fuck is the sub0culture of Goth taken so seriously? Maybe THAT'S why society looks down on it! They don;t see a bunch of "Devil worshipping freaks" they see "Obnoxious Devil worshipping freaks". All this talk of "I am more Goth than you" is pretty fucking pathetic. Really, who gives a damn? Whether some one is more Goth than I am isn't going to make me stop breathing.

Freaking baby bat, my hairy Irish ass hole...

FUCK I'm high...

Hahahah That was awesome.

[Lapin]

It amazes me how Duckie can tear people apart even when he's high off his ass.

I do agree. This thread is pretentious.

[Draconysius]

Originally Posted by Lapin

It amazes me how Duckie can tear people apart even when he's high off his ass.

I do agree. This thread is pretentious.

A thread is not pretentious until the people make it so.

I think it's the same way with religion, politics, and even subcultures. It starts out with daydreamer ideals of a perfect world all carried on the back of one collective vessel, but a few people let their greed take hold and they distort the intentions of the vessel, to adhere to their own selfish desires.

I agree with Vyvian on his statement of goth being undefinable. It's a lot like god, or... dare I say-the unnameable Tao (which, ironically, has a name XD). I'm an analytic fucker, so I draw my conclusions of goth through evidence. But goth still remains undefinable, since I cannot touch logically every corner of it.

Yes, it is much easier to define what is NOT goth, than what is. We must always remember our history and use it as a learning tool, but at the same time not get so consumed in it that we are closed to the present. That's what I believe, anyway.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Tha Duckman

...
For crying out loud, why the fuck is the sub0culture of Goth taken so seriously?
...

We know well that you do not like taking things seriously Duckman, you do not even take your own life seriously as evidenced by your useless, stoned joblessness. You are a "joker", who wastes his life away.

The rest of us do like to care about things, about the expressions in music, and what they say about life. We have ambition and energy, unlike you.

For crying out loud.

EDIT:

OK, that was a needlessly cruel personal attack. Sorry Duckman.

[Draconysius]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

We know well that you do not like taking things seriously Duckman, you do not even take your own life seriously as evidenced by your useless, stoned joblessness. You are a "joker", who wastes his life away.

The rest of us do like to care about things, about the expressions in music, and what they say about life. We have ambition and energy, unlike you.

For crying out loud.

EDIT:

OK, that was a needlessly cruel personal attack. Sorry Duckman.

Um... I wouldn't take Duckman seriously at all.

[Tha Duckman]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

We know well that you do not like taking things seriously Duckman, you do not even take your own life seriously as evidenced by your useless, stoned joblessness. You are a "joker", who wastes his life away.

The rest of us do like to care about things, about the expressions in music, and what they say about life. We have ambition and energy, unlike you.

For crying out loud.

EDIT:

OK, that was a needlessly cruel personal attack. Sorry Duckman.

Say what you like, I probably won't even remember when I wake up (If I ever get to sleep).

And I do happen to care about things. I care about my music, which, like you say, is my expressionism, and my free writing, which is also expressionism. I also happen to care about things and people that I'd much rather NOT care about, so I take drugs to stop that.

And I make awesome music while I'm on acid and speed.

[Snorts line].

[CountSixstring]

Wow guys. It shouldn't come to this. Drac didn't mean start any shit, he was just making a point.

[Tha Duckman]

And I was making the point that it seems pretentious, obnoxious and elitist. The "Gothier Than Thou" attitude is one of the things that the whole damn subculture is based on.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Tha Duckman

And I was making the point that it seems pretentious, obnoxious and elitist. The "Gothier Than Thou" attitude is one of the things that the whole damn subculture is based on.

No it isn't based on it (in response to both of your comments). There have been many threads and posts describing what it is based upon, so I won't repeat them here.

Have you ever been to a "Scene"? The young folks that I have started conversations with have been very friendly and willing to talk to me withOUT any air of pretension, being obnoxious or elitist. There hasn't been any attitude of "Gothier than thou". I am not just talking about The Showcase either, but other clubs too where there is an older mature audience. If anything, it has been the "normie" subculture (casuals) that HAS treated me that way, not Goth scene people.

I think that what you perceive as elitism is simply correction and description of Goth history and music so as to clear up misunderstandings. Sure, there are jerks in the subculture here and there, a cross section of any culture turns up the same percentage of jerks as reflected by society as a whole, although in my humble opinion, the Goth sub culture has fewer than the norm.

[Tha Duckman]

Yeah, I messed up on that post, it should have read "The "Gothier Than Thou" attitude isn't one of the things that the whole damn subculture is based on." or something.

And I play clubs, I never actually participate.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Honestly, I'm with Duckster on this one almost 100%. Get over it, all of you. YOu treat goth like it's a religion. It's really not that important. You can wear whatever you want and listen to whatever you want, and that's awesome, but it is not an earth-shattering thing, and it NEVER will be.
What's more, who the fuck are you people to say you need to "educate" baby bats? I hate it when you guys say that. Maybe they want to listen to real goth music, maybe they don't, but making fun of them and telling them over and over again that their music isn't goth doesn't help anyone, and it's just stupid and mean.
If a kid likes AFI, MCR, and HIM, and calls them goth, so what?! That doesn't mean they need to know what real goth music is, it means they like something else, and call it goth because that's what they think it's called. So what if that's not original goth music? Does that stop you from enjoying your music? NO. It doesn't affect you in any way.

But I know already what you're going to say: "They get called goth and then act stupid and I look bad, get followed in stores, etc."
Guess what--maybe you get followed in stores because you're dressed like a freak. (I'm not saying it's bad to dress that way, and I used to all the time, and still do when I feel like it.)

[Underwater Ophelia]

And to HumanePain--you're usually a level headed and nice guy, but you should be ashamed of yourself. What you said to Duckman was completely out of line. You know next to nothing about him, and you completely insulted him and possibly humiliated him in front of tons of people because he disagreed with you. There's something wrong there.

[maggot]

Does it annoy you when people misuse 'irony'? Yeah, me too.

Same exact thing.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by maggot

Does it annoy you when people misuse 'irony'? Yeah, me too.

Same exact thing.

Not quite. I don't care if you say "that isn't what goth is." I personally feel it's stupid and pointless, but I don't care if people do it. What pisses me off is when assholes assume it's their business to try to make people listen to goth music.
Maybe these kids don't give a shit? Let them like what they like.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

And to HumanePain--you're usually a level headed and nice guy, but you should be ashamed of yourself. What you said to Duckman was completely out of line. You know next to nothing about him, and you completely insulted him and possibly humiliated him in front of tons of people because he disagreed with you. There's something wrong there.

You're right. And I apologized to him.