One nation under God?

[Kanedawg]

We did it, and by God you should, too! Jest. It should certianly not be required. For myself I believe in a seperation of church and "God," as I think churches tend to distance people from spirituality as much as anything.

[viscus]

No, I don't think it's unconstitutional. The intention of the first amendment was (among other things) to keep religious authorities out of the government and vice versa, not to keep religion out of government altogether. A violation of the constitution would be more along the lines of a law requiring someone to be a bishop in order to hold a certain office, or for the government to establish a "Church of the United States" and fund it with public money. But I don't see how it could prevent religious references and morality from entering into the public square. Indeed, religious people live in this republic, and they deserve to be represented along with everyone else.

As for the purporters of this "Christian nation" nonsense, I think the Treaty of Tripoli (which was ratified unanimously by the Senate) pretty much puts it to rest:

Originally Posted by Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

[Kanedawg]

Hello, Viscus. I think that forcing any manifestation of a belief system on anyone, such as, for example, making kids address a higher power which they do or do not believe in as "God," actually goes a long way toward promoting athiesm. What if a kid has belief but it does not include the particular term "God," or what if they don't believe in a higher power at all? I would hope that they might change their mind in the latter at least at some point in their lives, as I did, but forcing it on them, such as by putting words in their mouths, will slow if not eliminate the possibility. I think requiring a recitation of national identity fused with a specific religious term is morally wrong and constitutionally questionable at best, especially in a school setting. But that's just me. On the other hand I think it would be good if schools included exploration of a broad spectrum of spiritual beliefs, including atheism and agnosticism, with nothing being forced onto, or out of, anyone.

[Kanedawg]

But who the hell do I think I am, anyway?! :^)

[Shadows_Jukebox]

Originally Posted by dark_dragon_of_ice

It seems a bit old fashioned I'm glad our country doesn't do that..

Nah, New Zealand is great in that way... But didnt you have to sing the national anthem untill your lips turned blue and fell off? I had to when I was living there, everytime the Head Mistress walked into the class room we all had to stand up and sing our ten year old hearts out.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that the soldiers in Iraq say a daily prayer during their morning service, which, thanks to a new addition to the Bible they carry, has this prayer written out - which includes a new line at the end - 'God bless George W. Bush', which is how they end their prayers.

I'm sure the reason no one's mentioned this "fact" is because no one's heard this "fact" before. Care to back it up?

[CptSternn]

It first appeared back in 2004 in The Nation magazine after troops reported it.

Since then, Salon and a dozen other magazines have reported on this.

The column of 31 March, titled ‘the daily outrage,’ by Matt Bivens in The Nation (weekly) in Washington DC

according to ‘A Christian’s Duty in Time of War’, a pamphlet created by In Touch Ministries, an evangelical group in the US, and given out to thousands of US Marines in Iraq, with a tear-out section to be filled by the Marines and sent along to the White House, the Marines are to “pledge to pray every day for George W. Bush.”

The pledge says: “I have committed to pray for you, your family and your staff.” The evangelical group that has created this pamphlet says in it, “We may not all be in the military. But we are all engaged in warfare.... spiritual warfare.”

The prayer for Tuesday, the column quotes from the pamphlet, is “Pray that the President and his advisors will be strong and courageous to do what is right regardless of critics” which Biven translates as: “pray that, even if all agree this war is a horrific catastrophe, even if Congress leaps to its feet in anger and despair, even if millions of Americans pour into the streets begging to bring you home .... even then, pray that the president will wave aside his critics and order you forward.”

The prayer for Wednesday is “pray that the President and his advisers will be safe, healthy, well-rested and free from fear.” Friday’s prayer? “Pray that the president and his advisers will be safe, healthy, well-rested and free from fear.” It also cites, Romans 13:1, “Every person is to be in subjugation to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.”

These pamphlets were distributed inside of the Bibles which they gave to the troops.

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/5317a.htm

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle5648.htm

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feat...ch/index1.html

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/outrage

OR just check this big link with many other links to this very story, along with links to the related groups who wrote this tripe...

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=183873

[Kanedawg]

That is fucking hideous. I can say that when I was in the "milli-tree" (Briefly!:^) we were given a choice of which version of Christianity we fit into. Fucking lovely.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

It first appeared back in 2004 in The Nation magazine after troops reported it.

Since then, Salon and a dozen other magazines have reported on this.

The column of 31 March, titled ‘the daily outrage,’ by Matt Bivens in The Nation (weekly) in Washington DC

according to ‘A Christian’s Duty in Time of War’, a pamphlet created by In Touch Ministries, an evangelical group in the US, and given out to thousands of US Marines in Iraq, with a tear-out section to be filled by the Marines and sent along to the White House, the Marines are to “pledge to pray every day for George W. Bush.”

The pledge says: “I have committed to pray for you, your family and your staff.” The evangelical group that has created this pamphlet says in it, “We may not all be in the military. But we are all engaged in warfare.... spiritual warfare.”

The prayer for Tuesday, the column quotes from the pamphlet, is “Pray that the President and his advisors will be strong and courageous to do what is right regardless of critics” which Biven translates as: “pray that, even if all agree this war is a horrific catastrophe, even if Congress leaps to its feet in anger and despair, even if millions of Americans pour into the streets begging to bring you home .... even then, pray that the president will wave aside his critics and order you forward.”

The prayer for Wednesday is “pray that the President and his advisers will be safe, healthy, well-rested and free from fear.” Friday’s prayer? “Pray that the president and his advisers will be safe, healthy, well-rested and free from fear.” It also cites, Romans 13:1, “Every person is to be in subjugation to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.”

These pamphlets were distributed inside of the Bibles which they gave to the troops.

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/5317a.htm

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle5648.htm

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feat...ch/index1.html

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/outrage

OR just check this big link with many other links to this very story, along with links to the related groups who wrote this tripe...

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=183873

So, you proven that some religious nuts send pamphlets to our troops. That's considerably different than when you said that "soldiers in Iraq say a daily prayer during their morning service" because of "a new addition to the Bible they carry." You haven't shown that the Bibles are altered, and you haven't shown that all the soldier who receive these pamphlets actually pay them any heed. (I'm sure some of them do, because there are idiots in every group, but you implied that all the soldiers do this. Clearly, this is not the case, and is merely an attempt to throw mud on the names of the military.)

[CptSternn]

Are you really that thick? Did you not check the links? Read the Google Answers link.

[Beneath the Shadows]

It seems that you are the thick one, since the links you provided do not match up with what you said.

[CptSternn]

You ask for links, I provide them, and you refuse to read them and deny the content on them.

You can lead a horse to water...

[Beneath the Shadows]

I did read them, you dolt. Hence me saying that they don't say what you claim. Maybe you should read them.

But then again, I can't make you drink...

[Crying_Crimson_Tears]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that the soldiers in Iraq say a daily prayer during their morning service, which, thanks to a new addition to the Bible they carry, has this prayer written out - which includes a new line at the end - 'God bless George W. Bush', which is how they end their prayers.

That disgusts me.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by Crying_Crimson_Tears

That disgusts me.

Well, non-truths should...

[MirrorsAndMonoxide]

I strongly believe in separation of church and state as does my mother. In elementary school I remember being forced to stand up and recite the Pledge of Allegiance. "..One nation under God.." When I informed my mother that in school choruses most of the songs mention God and his awesomeness she was irate. My 14 year old sister told me that in her chorus they had a song that went along the lines of "Release Satan from your soul/God is taking over."

I don't agree a bit with anything the bible says and to force these beliefs among people, especially children of which most are too young to form their own beliefs anyways, upsets me nearly more than anything.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

Well, non-truths should...

Since you are an obvious eejit, who will sit here and deny the truth until I copy and paste it from the link provided I'll go ahead and help you out. I don't blame you - you are epitomizing the average American here, making my point from another thread - denying the truth and actively trying not to read it, at the same time trying to convince others around you that you are correct and there is 'nothing to see here', or maybe it's just classic laziness - you could be bothered to click said link because that would be too much actual work for one day for ye...

*Quoted from the link that you claim doesn't say this...

On Sunday, March 30th, the ABC News affiliate in Australia reported:

"They may be the ones facing danger on the battlefield, but US
soldiers in Iraq are being asked to pray for President George W Bush.

Thousands of marines have been given a pamphlet called "A Christian's
Duty," a mini prayer book which includes a tear-out section to be
mailed to the White House pledging the soldier who sends it in has
been praying for Bush."

US soldiers in Iraq asked to pray for Bush
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s819685.htm

The pamphlet, which was apparently distributed to Christian and
non-Christian Marines alike, offers daily "devotionals" - those for
the president occupying the first position for each day, with prayers
for the troops relegated to the second position.

These were put inside all the Bibles distributed. But hey, go ahead and pretend you don't see this if it makes you sleep better a night living a lie.

Feel free to check out the ABC News link, the link to Google Answers, and the others I posted to other quality news sources which echo the same stories above. Of course if you would like to deny this more, feel free. Everyone else reading the thread at this point sees your comments for what they are...

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Since you are an obvious eejit, who will sit here and deny the truth until I copy and paste it from the link provided I'll go ahead and help you out.

And yet you are the one doing the denying. Funny how you deny that.

I don't blame you - you are epitomizing the average American here, making my point from another thread

Actually, you are epitomizing the average anti-American.

- denying the truth and actively trying not to read it, at the same time trying to convince others around you that you are correct and there is 'nothing to see here', or maybe it's just classic laziness

I did read "it" (by "it" I mean "them," since you posted several links... but hey, who am I to tell you that you're wrong about fact?).

- you could be bothered to click said link because that would be too much actual work for one day for ye...

Actually, the only actual work that would be involved would be you finding a source that actually agreed with what you originally said (and not what you claimed afterwards).

*Quoted from the link that you claim doesn't say this...

Liar. I never said it doesn't say that. I said it doesn't say what you say it said.

On Sunday, March 30th, the ABC News affiliate in Australia reported:

"They may be the ones facing danger on the battlefield, but US
soldiers in Iraq are being asked to pray for President George W Bush.

Thousands of marines have been given a pamphlet called "A Christian's
Duty," a mini prayer book which includes a tear-out section to be
mailed to the White House pledging the soldier who sends it in has
been praying for Bush."

US soldiers in Iraq asked to pray for Bush
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s819685.htm

The pamphlet, which was apparently distributed to Christian and
non-Christian Marines alike, offers daily "devotionals" - those for
the president occupying the first position for each day, with prayers
for the troops relegated to the second position.

Wow, will you look at that. The very article you quote disagrees with what you originally said, and yet you claim it backs up what you said. You have got to be the dumbest person on Earth.

Allow me to remind you of what you originally said... "I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that the soldiers in Iraq say a daily prayer during their morning service, which, thanks to a new addition to the Bible they carry, has this prayer written out - which includes a new line at the end - 'God bless George W. Bush', which is how they end their prayers."

The article says that the soldiers get these pamphlets. You, on the other hand, say that the soldiers actually say these prayers.

That they get the soldiers get these pamphlets is not in dispute. That the soldiers do what the pamphlets say, on the other hand, is. If you weren't a raving wing-nut, you'd realize this.

These were put inside all the Bibles distributed.

So, now you admit that those Bibles aren't altered?

But hey, go ahead and pretend you don't see this if it makes you sleep better a night living a lie.

You're the one living a lie. That fact that you don't realize it is just sad.

Feel free to check out the ABC News link, the link to Google Answers, and the others I posted to other quality news sources which echo the same stories above. Of course if you would like to deny this more, feel free. Everyone else reading the thread at this point sees your comments for what they are...

They disagreed with what you said the first time I read them. They continued to disagree with what you said the second time I read them. I seriously doubt they're going to start agreeing with you were I to read them a third time.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

That they get the soldiers get these pamphlets is not in dispute. That the soldiers do what the pamphlets say, on the other hand, is.

Heh, so your arguing that the soldiers don't say the prayers, that they are given by the US government. Thats what your arguing here?

The US government is handing out Bibles, with inserts telling the soldiers to pray for gw, and your arguing, well, they don't actually do it.

Thats your argument here?

It's sad you would try and shift the argument from the fact these materials are being dsitrubuted, which even you now admit they are, and try and back peddle and claim that your argument is they don't actually say those prayers, which they are given with their Bibles.

The point was, the US government is handing out Bibles with the aforementioned prayer in them, a fact you boldly deny throughout this thread, until now when you try and shift the argument to not if they received such literature, which is clear they did, but the fact the soldiers might not have actually read said prayers.

Your trying to change the argument after you have clearly been proved wrong.

[Mir]

One nation under one God? Which God would you be referring to here? Question is directed to the dude that posted this thread.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Heh, so your arguing that the soldiers don't say the prayers, that they are given by the US government. Thats what your arguing here?

The US government is handing out Bibles, with inserts telling the soldiers to pray for gw, and your arguing, well, they don't actually do it.

Thats your argument here?

Um, close enough. It's religious groups sending those bibles, not the government, but other than that, yeah, that's exactly what I'm arguing. If you had been paying attention, you would've realized this.

Oh, and also the fact that when you say "the soldier in Iraq say a prayer blah blah blah," you're implying that they all follow this religious nuttitry, which is a load of crap.

It's sad you would try and shift the argument from the fact these materials are being dsitrubuted, which even you now admit they are, and try and back peddle and claim that your argument is they don't actually say those prayers, which they are given with their Bibles.

It would only be back-peddling if I tried to change my argument. Since I have not done that, I'm obviously not back-peddling.

The point was, the US government is handing out Bibles with the aforementioned prayer in them, a fact you boldly deny throughout this thread, until now when you try and shift the argument to not if they received such literature, which is clear they did, but the fact the soldiers might not have actually read said prayers.

Now it's you who are trying to shift the argument. You never once before said that it was the U.S. government passing out these Bibles, and neither do the articles you've linked to and copied-and-pasted from.

Now that your face has been shoved in the fact that U.S. soldiers aren't the 21st century religious crusaders which you've tried to make them out to be, and you can't escape that fact any longer, you have to try to make the U.S. government look bad for something. Well, the U.S. government has done enough things on it's own to make itself look bad without adding shit that never happened to the list.

Your trying to change the argument after you have clearly been proved wrong.

What's the term that's coming to mind right now? Oh, right. Projection.

[jestercel85]

I never had to say the pledge as far as I can remember, if they had tried to require it I am sure as a small child I would. Were they to try it now I would most likely walk out of the classroom. I am a VERY strong supporter of the Separation of Church and State. Absolutely no religious terminology of ANY kind should be included in any state issued document, from a pledge, all the way down to the money they print. To do so directly violates the separation in my eyes. Please realize this is my opinion, I am not stating it as fact.

I long ago stopped saying the ridiculous pledge, and I also stopped carrying or using the money printed by the US Treasury unless I absolutely have to. Most times meaning when I do laundry. If I do have to use paper money instead of my debit card I clearly and boldly take a sharpie and mark out the words In God We Trust and then easily use the money. Technically, I have heard, it is illegal but who cares, they should not be placing that on the money in the first place.

[viscus]

Originally Posted by jestercel85

I long ago stopped saying the ridiculous pledge, and I also stopped carrying or using the money printed by the US Treasury unless I absolutely have to. Most times meaning when I do laundry. If I do have to use paper money instead of my debit card I clearly and boldly take a sharpie and mark out the words In God We Trust and then easily use the money. Technically, I have heard, it is illegal but who cares, they should not be placing that on the money in the first place.

You realize that when you use your debit card, someone in a bank somewhere is trading US dollars with the dreaded word "God" printed on them in your name, right?

Did you know that the English word "good" is a corruption of the word "God?" Better make a point of saying "positive" or "excellent" instead.

[KontanKarite]

Can we all just wipe our asses with the bible and shove it down the atheists' throats?

[jestercel85]

Originally Posted by viscus

You realize that when you use your debit card, someone in a bank somewhere is trading US dollars with the dreaded word "God" printed on them in your name, right?

Did you know that the English word "good" is a corruption of the word "God?" Better make a point of saying "positive" or "excellent" instead.

Yes I am quite well aware of what goes on in a bank, I am not an idiot, however I am not directly carrying, nor touching, the money so I am alleviated of any burden of conscience.

And yes I also knew the etymology of the word Good. However it is a corruption so hey more power to it.

Was there something I said you took offense to? You seemed to be taking a defensive tone, perhaps I misread that.