Something Not Talked About

[JCC]

I don't think that law is based on religion. This is commonly boasted by the religious as a way of saying "How could you possibly function without us?!"

Religion mirrors the instincts of people. This is why certain obvious things like not killing and not stealing are in there, the majority do not want to die or be stolen from.

This is also the reason behind it being outdated. People have progressed since then, and religion is redundant. Frankly, I see no positive role that religion has played. It has inspired great art. ... From there all I see is puppeteering and war.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by alyroi360

I agree, JCC. but is there any religion that's not based upon obediance these days?

Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, off the top of my head. There's hundreds of religions you know

I agree if you look at the whole of it, especially the story of original sin Christianity is about blind obedience. Do you know of a passage though that Jesus himself says obedience is the most important thing in the world? Most liberal Christians only concern themselves with what Jesus himself said.

[JCC]

Buddhism is a fucking horrid religion, I hate this Western Buddhist-mania.

[Saya]

Hold there, you're speaking to a Zen Buddhist. What do you know about the religion?

Though I do not like how a lot of Buddhists try to appeal to Christians by saying how much alike we are. Curse you, Pure Land! And you, Soka Gakkai!

[alyroi360]

Originally Posted by JCC

I don't think that law is based on religion. This is commonly boasted by the religious as a way of saying "How could you possibly function without us?!"

Religion mirrors the instincts of people. This is why certain obvious things like not killing and not stealing are in there, the majority do not want to die or be stolen from.

This is also the reason behind it being outdated. People have progressed since then, and religion is redundant. Frankly, I see no positive role that religion has played. It has inspired great art. ... From there all I see is puppeteering and war.

well put. I know that religious like to parade around and convert other people to their religion with the i told you sos, and beleive in this or you'll die, and so on and so forth, so I think the whole point of the thing is to get people to beleive in, frankly, a plan. If there's a plan, nobody panics, right? Nobody really wants to be alone in beleiving in some higher calling or they'll think that they're going mad... religion=madness?

[TheBloodEternity]

Originally Posted by Saya

Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, off the top of my head. There's hundreds of religions you know

I agree if you look at the whole of it, especially the story of original sin Christianity is about blind obedience. Do you know of a passage though that Jesus himself says obedience is the most important thing in the world? Most liberal Christians only concern themselves with what Jesus himself said.

Actually, according the the bible we're "free moral agents" or have "free will," and there's actually a scripture somewhere that says to examine everything that you read or hear, ie, don't follow things blindly. Oh, but if you don't follow the bibles rules and regulations blindly, you get thrown in a lake of fire. Fun stuff huh.

This is the third time since yesterday I've talked about religion and religion gives me a headache....

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Saya

Hold there, you're speaking to a Zen Buddhist. What do you know about the religion?

Though I do not like how a lot of Buddhists try to appeal to Christians by saying how much alike we are. Curse you, Pure Land! And you, Soka Gakkai!

I posted this somewhere else a while ago, couldn't be bothered typing it out again:

One of the main points of Buddhism is that all life is suffering, and suffering comes from desire. So basically, you want to fuck, and have lots of cool shit, but really you're just hurting yourself. So you deprive yourself of what you want. Political. Completely and utterly political, boils down to saving resources and making people miserable and servient. How can you save yourself from suffering? Following the commandments of Buddhism, and the eight paths to happiness, all that bullshit. Commandments, effectively laws, political again, hello corruptive Monotheism, so good to see you.

So, we've got deprivation that apparently leads to happiness (which actually leads to starvation), and following laws. Sounds a lot like Christianity to me so far.

Okay, so, list of Buddhist countries:

Cambodia
Sri Lanka
Thailand (bustling child sex trade)
Tibet
Bhutan (rife non-Buddhist discrimination)

Yeah, good to see how the substantial Buddhism is helping the population of those countries to civil strife and general fucked-upness. The politics behind Buddhism is there and it FAILS MISERABLY.

[alyroi360]

wow JCC. if I where buddhist, I think I'd kill myself.

[Catch]

The religious interpretations often change depending on society's beliefs. Probably even Buddhism does that.

I wrote a paper:

http://www.printnpost.com/articles/8...ken/Page1.html


. . .

[Saya]

Originally Posted by JCC

One of the main points of Buddhism is that all life is suffering, and suffering comes from desire. So basically, you want to fuck, and have lots of cool shit, but really you're just hurting yourself. So you deprive yourself of what you want. Political. Completely and utterly political, boils down to saving resources and making people miserable and servient. How can you save yourself from suffering? Following the commandments of Buddhism, and the eight paths to happiness, all that bullshit. Commandments, effectively laws, political again, hello corruptive Monotheism, so good to see you.

Before Buddha sat under the tree, he studied with a group of holy men who denied themselves to the point where he would only eat a piece of fruit a day. After nearly killing himself the Buddha knew this was not the way. So he followed the Middle Way, neither the excessive life he followed as a prince nor the minimalist life he led with the holy men.

I can fuck and I can have cool shit, but why do I want it? Personally I like fucking because I like the intimacy and sharing pleasure with someone. I want cool shit.....because I like to distract myself from reality. Everyone has tags to them, I have nintendo, I have cool clothes. I am gothic, I am Canadian, I am an anarchist, might be some of the things I'd say if someone asks who I am. But those things are labels, tiny bits of things about me, but they aren't me. And you see what happens with kiddos who get too caught up with being gothic Who am I then? Who are you? Where did we come from? Where are we going? The truth to these questions is what a Buddhist seeks.

Attatchment is a much better word than desire. I ATTATCH myself to the idea of goth, lets say, and believe thats all their is to me. I ATTATCH myself to my possessions and believe this proves I've led a good life. But its not me.

We don't have commandments. To free ourselves of the cycle of suffering we must acheive enlightenment. We have guidelines to guide us there, we have teachers, but its up to the individual. Buddha said not to believe anything himself says or any other teacher just because he says so. We have to keep our minds open or we may not recognize the true nature of things. A master said "We are the finger that points you to the moon, but woe to he who mistakes the finger for the moon."

I could go on for hours about this, but Buddhism is about individual salvation and enlightenment, not starving ourselves. A millionaire can acheive enlighentment and so can a bum on the street. Buddhism says all things have Buddha nature, no one is more special than others.

Originally Posted by JCC

So, we've got deprivation that apparently leads to happiness (which actually leads to starvation), and following laws. Sounds a lot like Christianity to me so far.

Okay, so, list of Buddhist countries:

Cambodia
Sri Lanka
Thailand (bustling child sex trade)
Tibet
Bhutan (rife non-Buddhist discrimination)

Yeah, good to see how the substantial Buddhism is helping the population of those countries to civil strife and general fucked-upness. The politics behind Buddhism is there and it FAILS MISERABLY.

Actually, a lot of Zen Buddhists are anarchists, so is the Buddhist Peace Fellowship and I only first heard about anarchy from Zen Master Robert Aitken. Duing the Vietnam war Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh declared he and his student neutral and aided the wounded on both sides of the conflict, and both sides were suspicious of him and his monks, there were many attempts on his life and many of his students died. During a visit in France I think he was told he couldn't go back to Vietnam, they only allowed him back for a visit for the first time since a few years back. A lot of monks then too set themselves on fire to protest the war. Since Buddhism teaches one to think for themselves and to hold no other person above them, a lot of governments in the past have tried to eradicate the teachings. Zen Master Seung Sahn got himself in trouble too with the South Korean government for protesting the dictatorship.

[JCC]

Zen Buddhism is pretty far removed from Buddhism.

[Solumina]

That is kind of like saying that Methodists are far removed from Christianity

[Saya]

Ditto. Different denominations can be very very different, yes, and there have been accusations from a few of them that all the others are wrong and distorting Buddhism (thus my distaste for Pure Land and Soka Gakkai.) But we're all Buddhist.

[Corpsey]

Originally Posted by alyroi360

I agree, JCC. but is there any religion that's not based upon obediance these days? I mean, our governments are usually based on religion, so.... That means that there is no love for your people if you're the president? or does it mean that we need to get the fuck out of america? maybe even something else...

Well, Jehovah's Witnesses like to believe in political neutrality. One of their fundamental beliefs is that Humans do not have the right to rule themselves.

Originally Posted by JCC

Frankly, I see no positive role that religion has played. It has inspired great art. ... From there all I see is puppeteering and war.

Ever read John Donne? He wrote some of the most beautiful religious poems using plethoras of sexual connotations and got away with it in preshakespearian times. Now that is art.

If you consistently see puppeteering and war, perchance did you know that Jehovah's witnesses don't go to war, period? I've heard a few stories of them going to prison for not adhering to their countries policies of making every young male a soldier. Proof enough that there is atleast one that are completely against war?

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Corpsey

Well, Jehovah's Witnesses like to believe in political neutrality. One of their fundamental beliefs is that Humans do not have the right to rule themselves.

Nothing can be politically neutral, and this is far from neutrality. Virtually all religions are exactly the same: man is inferior, man can't rule over himself.
It logically follows that if man can't rule over himself, then something else must rule over him. That's already totalitarianism. And something must have told man how to be ruled if he himself can't do it; another man describes himself as apt for that job. That's already stratification.

[alyroi360]

wait a second Jillian, I don;t understand. People have to have a system right? If we didn't everybody would go nuts and start to kill eachother... so if anarchy was enforced, and man ruled himself, then everything would be chaos. but then everyone can make their own choices that's the important thing.

[gothicusmaximus]

Man, the last two pages of this thread sure have been painful.

[alyroi360]

tell me about it.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by alyroi360

tell me about it.

But you deserve pain, I don't.

[alyroi360]

you deserve the pain... YOU WEREN"T HERE THE WHOLE TIME.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by alyroi360

People have to have a system right?

Wrong. Next question.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by alyroi360

you deserve the pain... YOU WEREN"T HERE THE WHOLE TIME.

But I'm not stupid. I did read every post, their idiocy doesn't lose potency over time.

[alyroi360]

oooooooooo..... wait. was this the thread about religion or whatever? dude JCC kicked Jillian's ass!!!

[Godslayer Jillian]

What are you talking about? We have the same opinion of religion.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

PS, Tam?

In your sig--it's ShakespearE.

Yeah, LiUsAiDh pointed that out earlier. It's corrected now.