Anarchy, It doesn't sound like what I'm told.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

That's the thing. Humans are only decent when compared to less decent ones.

What do you think the consensus of decency is? Bare bones. And by less decent ones, I'll repeat that for the most part we don't know the motivations of indecency. There are SEVERAL circumstances and factors to consider.

Sure, there are some people out there that are more than likely, very evil people, but to assume that the majority of the human race is evil is pretty damned pessimistic and untrue.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Yet, in any society, there is a definitive line between what is 'decent' and what is not.

In general, r@pists, cold-blooded killers, child abusers, and the like aren't considered 'decent'. Those who care for their families, who show respect for others, and are mature enough to exercise self-control over their emotions are considered more than 'decent'. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, which is where 'decency' comes into play..

R@pists, Cold-Blooded Killers, and Child Abusers are generally stone cold crazy. And many societies consider homosexuality indecent. And nudity, as well.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

But that doesn't mean it wasn't invented out of some form of selfishness. And food is natural. Cars are not. Nobody NEEDS a car to live. Shelter is also free. A house is not.

Actually, in today's society, it sort of is. Most of us aren't farmers or know how to kill, skin, and gut our own meat, so we have to get to the grocery store to buy groceries. Before that, we have to be able to get to our jobs so that we can buy groceries so that we can eat.

Sure, I guess I could grow tomatoes in my back yard, but in today's modern society it just isn't practical.

As for shelter, sure, I guess we could all go back to living in leaky log cabins in the middle of the creepy, damp woods, but most folks enjoy being healthy and not having to worry about whether or not they will wake up to a snake on their bed or scorpians in their shoes.

But hey, if you want to live in a teepee, grow your own food, and slaughter your own chickens, then please be my guest. Only don't beg to go to the hospital if you get bitten by a poisonous critter or lose an eye in a fight with a bear.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

What do you think the consensus of decency is? Bare bones. And by less decent ones, I'll repeat that for the most part we don't know the motivations of indecency. There are SEVERAL circumstances and factors to consider.

Sure, there are some people out there that are more than likely, very evil people, but to assume that the majority of the human race is evil is pretty damned pessimistic and untrue.

Evil comes in different forms. A little evil begets more evil and it goes on and gets bigger and bigger.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

R@pists, Cold-Blooded Killers, and Child Abusers are generally stone cold crazy. And many societies consider homosexuality indecent. And nudity, as well.

You said they're crazy which would imply to me that had their situations in life been different or had they got the help they needed, then they wouldn't be crazy.

You see, you're now speaking of mental disorders which DO exist but are also the result of certain environmental factors. For example, those with PTSD.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Actually, in today's society, it sort of is. Most of us aren't farmers or know how to kill, skin, and gut our own meat, so we have to get to the grocery store to buy groceries. Before that, we have to be able to get to our jobs so that we can buy groceries so that we can eat.

Sure, I guess I could grow tomatoes in my back yard, but in today's modern society it just isn't practical.

As for shelter, sure, I guess we could all go back to living in leaky log cabins in the middle of the creepy, damp woods, but most folks enjoy being healthy and not having to worry about whether or not they will wake up to a snake on their bed or scorpians in their shoes.

But hey, if you want to live in a teepee, grow your own food, and slaughter your own chickens, then please be my guest. Only don't beg to go to the hospital if you get bitten by a poisonous critter or lose an eye in a fight with a bear.

There's a difference between wanting and needing, though. At first you say, it 'sort of is'. Conforming to the modern system isn't required for survival. It's simply optimal, and can supply us with beautiful excess.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

R@pists, Cold-Blooded Killers, and Child Abusers are generally stone cold crazy.

So, does indecency = crazy? Or is it a little different.

And many societies consider homosexuality indecent.

True. But do you agree that homosexuality is indecent?

And nudity, as well.

Not exactly. Most societies consider nudity displayed inappropriately to be indecent. For instance, you can go to a public museum and see a rendering of a naked woman on canvas, and that's fine. But if you go outside on the street, take off all your clothes, and start dancing around in public, then the law says that you have to go to jail. BUT, the exception is made for nude beaches and other areas where nudity is considered 'appropriate'.

If you live in a society, you have to bend to the society's rules and regulations just a tad so that you don't get thrown in jail.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

You said they're crazy which would imply to me that had their situations in life been different or had they got the help they needed, then they wouldn't be crazy.

You see, you're now speaking of mental disorders which DO exist but are also the result of certain environmental factors. For example, those with PTSD.

You can be born a psycho.

[a morbid curiosity]

Forgive me for jumping in, I know very little about anarchy, but people here are saying it wouldn't work because people are selfish. I agree with JCC and Jillian in that people wouldn't just subject themselves to the first dictator that sauntered into the picture, but I'd like to add - wouldn't the selfish nature of the human race be another reason for it to work? I mean, selfish people are the ones that are always trying to get what they want - but if what they want doesn't exist, they'd be slower to reach out and grab it?

You know, just thought I'd throw that in there.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

Evil comes in different forms. A little evil begets more evil and it goes on and gets bigger and bigger.

I've found this is only true if one becomes addicted to certain things.

Also, it depends on what definition you are using for evil. Are you using 'evil' to mean 'indecent', or are you referring to a certain moral or religious code?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

But that doesn't mean it wasn't invented out of some form of selfishness. And food is natural. Cars are not. Nobody NEEDS a car to live. Shelter is also free. A house is not.

Shelter is free? Where the fuck do you live? In capitalist society, nothing is free. Hell in America if you need basic health care they'll charge you. They'd charge you to breathe if they could get away with it, living isn't cheap. And I definately need some form of vehicle to get from place to place, my work is an hour and a half walk away, the bus system is a blessing. And my mother lives far away, so I can either get a bus out there or carpool out there. A lot of people in outport communities depend on vehicles to get to hospitals, airports, hell to the grocery stores, some towns don't even have one shop.

Forgive me for jumping in, I know very little about anarchy, but people here are saying it wouldn't work because people are selfish. I agree with JCC and Jillian in that people wouldn't just subject themselves to the first dictator that sauntered into the picture, but I'd like to add - wouldn't the selfish nature of the human race be another reason for it to work? I mean, selfish people are the ones that are always trying to get what they want - but if what they want doesn't exist, they'd be slower to reach out and grab it?

Thats a valid point. Even if humans were inherently selfish, if they have all they need, why would they act out?

[Tam Li Hua]

Ok, getting off work now. *happiness*

[KontanKarite]

This is totally true. I wont dispute that. But the crux of that is, there is no form of social control that will dictate the DNA and psychology of a newly born person.

So in the case of naturally crazy people, those are the breaks and that totally sucks for them. But then also in that case, a form of government would make little difference as to how this person behaves.

Once again, no one is saying Anarchy is a utopia. But neither is anything else we have. So the point that humans are evil by nature is kind of a silly argument.

[JCC]

I was just about to say something in the vein as a morbid curiosity just did; all of this talk of luxuries is irrelevant because people want luxuries, so they'd make them. In a sense, luxuries are necessities. Wanting luxuries says nothing of the practicalities of Anarchism, it's clutching at straws that have no tangible representation.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

So, does indecency = crazy? Or is it a little different.

No. I already said that I think everybody's indecent.

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

True. But do you agree that homosexuality is indecent?

No. But do all r@pists think they themselves are indecent? Or does society decide it for them?

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Not exactly. Most societies consider nudity displayed inappropriately to be indecent. For instance, you can go to a public museum and see a rendering of a naked woman on canvas, and that's fine. But if you go outside on the street, take off all your clothes, and start dancing around in public, then the law says that you have to go to jail. BUT, the exception is made for nude beaches and other areas where nudity is considered 'appropriate'.

If you live in a society, you have to bend to the society's rules and regulations just a tad so that you don't get thrown in jail.

Nudity's nudity, as far as I'm concerned. And did you ever hear of the teacher fired for going into a museum with her class which she didn't know contained the statue of David? People are offended by the human body, and I think that's just silly.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

I've found this is only true if one becomes addicted to certain things.

Also, it depends on what definition you are using for evil. Are you using 'evil' to mean 'indecent', or are you referring to a certain moral or religious code?

I'm not using it to refer to either. Unless you consider "white lies" indecent. Everything from a little lie or laziness to a nuclear holocaust is evil.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by JCC

I was just about to say something in the vein as a morbid curiosity just did; all of this talk of luxuries is irrelevant because people want luxuries, so they'd make them. In a sense, luxuries are necessities. Wanting luxuries says nothing of the practicalities of Anarchism, it's clutching at straws that have no tangible representation.

The subject sort of flowed into a debate on human greed. You can look back at other posts if you want to get a clue.

[JCC]

No, but people were saying that luxuries are selfishness, part of my point is that luxuries really are necessities. Nobody wants to live by the bare bones. Plus, all of the luxuries mentioned are very important.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

This is totally true. I wont dispute that. But the crux of that is, there is no form of social control that will dictate the DNA and psychology of a newly born person.

So in the case of naturally crazy people, those are the breaks and that totally sucks for them. But then also in that case, a form of government would make little difference as to how this person behaves.

Once again, no one is saying Anarchy is a utopia. But neither is anything else we have. So the point that humans are evil by nature is kind of a silly argument.

I was arguing with what you said about crazy people being "made crazy". That had nothing to do with anarchy, it had to do with you expressing (what seemed like) ignorance on the subject of mental health.

[LiUsAiDh]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

You can be born a psycho.

It's not very common that mental illness is developed in the womb (although, yes, it is possible) but it is not the norm. Most mental illnesses are developed through into later life, many manifesting in the teenage years. A 'psycho' isn't one set 'thing', which presents in only one way at one set point in life, there are hundreds of causes of mental illnesses.

[LiUsAiDh]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

ignorance on the subject of mental health.

Says the guy who calls mentally ill people 'psychos'.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by JCC

No, but people were saying that luxuries are selfishness, part of my point is that luxuries really are necessities. Nobody wants to live by the bare bones. Plus, all of the luxuries mentioned are very important.

That's the THING. A need can't be a want. I want a tv. I want a computer. I want a house. I need none of those, but I enjoy having them very much. Is it selfish of me to not give everything I've got (rather than some) to people who want/need it more? Yes. Do I care? No. Because I want what I want, just like everybody else.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

That's the THING. A need can't be a want. I want a tv. I want a computer. I want a house. I need none of those, but I enjoy having them very much. Is it selfish of me to not give everything I've got (rather than some) to people who want/need it more? Yes. Do I care? No. Because I want what I want, just like everybody else.

But I would give it to people who need it more, so what's your point?

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

It's not very common that mental illness is developed in the womb (although, yes, it is possible) but it is not the norm. Most mental illnesses are developed through into later life, many manifesting in the teenage years. A 'psycho' isn't one set 'thing', which presents in only one way at one set point in life, there are hundreds of causes of mental illnesses.

That why I said "can be born". I was arguing with Kontan who implied that things MADE them that way.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by JCC

But I would give it to people who need it more, so what's your point?

I said everything. If you'd give everything you've got to others, why are you on a computer?